Being silenced/feeling voiceless

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Can we talk about this?

There were some amazing threads on here a few years ago, about rape and about 'small' sexual assaults, and I remember so many posters saying they'd suddenly found a way to talk about something that had shaped them as people. It seemed really powerful to me. But I was wondering if we're actually going backwards in terms of feeling able to speak up.

I was in a meeting yesterday, and noticing how some women (including me) do that classic 'I don't know if I'm saying this very well' kind of minimising of their own points. I was really struck that someone said 'I need to learn the language to say this' - as if she was being inarticulate, rather than as if people weren't bothering to listen to what she was saying (which was closer to the case).

I keep on feeling this way, especially about all the debates raging around gender identity issues - I just don't have the language to say what I want to say. I can't help feeling as if all of us who disagree are just miscommunicating. Does anyone else feel that? I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

Does anyone else feel like this?

Sorry, Jeanne, I think I've derailed your thread!

I don't like offending people either Yonic but I think it is dangerous to take on trust that they are describing more than only their subjective internal experience. Otherwise you condone the notion that their subjective internal experiences can tell more about the world than physical evidence and logic.

The reason I go as far to say it is dangerous is because people can have a really potent feelings about lots of things, religion is a good one, but when you abandon evidence and logic to 'strong feelings' you can end up with situations like Hitler holding audiences in the palm of his hand.

Scepticism is essential - it doesn't need to be rude and unfriendly, just asking 'is there evidence for this?', and 'is this logical?'.

"I'm not sure that gender identity is behavioural stereotyping. I can see how a person might feel their body strongly matched/mismatched their internal picture of themselves. A bit like when you catch sight of the first wrinkle or grey hair in the mirror and it feels wrong, but much stronger and more persistent."

Here you are not describing 'gender identity', but the condition of 'sex-dysphoria'- which is all in the mind. Identity is a step beyond - out of your private internal experience, to how you describe yourself to the world outside.

Sorry, catching up rather slowly.

I should say, I suppose I am 'feminine' (someone mentioned 'feminine' women). I mean, if you saw me in the street, you'd see a woman who is always wearing dresses, sometimes heels, who looks quite feminine. And I like some of the stereotypical 'feminine' things to do. But that isn't me.

I used to get so much praise (as a child) for being a tomboy. I would probably be taken more seriously at work if I were less feminine-looking (and I remember someone on here suggesting to another poster that they needed to dress in a less girly way to be taken seriously ).

I would hate the idea of being called a 'feminine-gendered female' (or 'gender neutral female'). Fine if someone else feels that describes them - but for me, that feels like saying 'we have decided this 'gender' that you are so uneasy about, must describe you. Take your pick of labels within it!' Surely the point is that, no matter how I feel about myself, no one is remotely interested in anything except how I look and how I can be positioned on a spectrum I didn't create. They will treat me accordingly.

I think I am agreeing with yonic, basically.

innocent - thank you for commenting. I don't know either but it's good to know it's not just me.

Oh.

What's the opposite of dysphoria?

I think I find it a bit stereotyping. Like being a woman means having certain thoughts and feelings, liking certain things. And I'm not a stereotypical woman. Maybe I'm a bit, frightened, perhaps? I don't know the right word. But i think I'm scared that by those sorts of definitions I might not actually be a woman. Which seems insane to me, because I am a woman.

Sorry, I wrote that so slowly I cross posted.

under, that was a lightbulb post for me, because that is how I have heard people use 'identify' and I never understood it.

But, if I said my identity - how I describe myself to the world outside - were as a masculine-gendered female, how would they know? Would they treat me any differently, seeing me wearing dresses and whatever?

None of these labels seem to me to touch on the important point, which is that none of us can escape the fact we were born into a society that has already decided how to treat us based on a stereotype.

gender-happy vs gender-dysphoria vs gender-meh?

jessica - YY, I agree. I feel a bit frightened. For me I think it's the other way around - I know I am a woman but I don't feel the way some people seem to think you should feel if you are a ciswoman. But if I were to say that, people would think I was trying to take something away from people who more visibly identify as something other than cis.

gender-happy/gender-dysphoria/gender-meh

equals cis/trans/no prefix?

Someone - blackcurrants, I think? - from way back came out with the phrase 'gender agnostic'. Which I love. But I think both that and 'gender meh' suggest that we are unsure what gender is. And I do feel that, but I would like to know how to understand, too.

What's the opposite of dysphoria?..
It is sort of like asking - 'what's the opposite of being depressed or deluded'? I suppose it it could be 'not having dysphoria', or 'not having delusions' or 'not having anxiety'.... being of sound mental health maybe? But I suppose the literal opposite would be euphoria..

YY "None of these labels seem to me to touch on the important point, which is that none of us can escape the fact we were born into a society that has already decided how to treat us based on a stereotype."

Its the system that's the problem, and trying to re-define who we are as individuals (our identity) does nothing to change the system, it just disguises it.

Yes, I think it is the problem.

But, then ... do people who have a gender identity think this isn't the problem? Do they think it's really different for us? Is it really different for us?

Euphoria! Embarrassed I didn't think of that...

I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

This sentence really stood out for me. I think you have put it in words brilliantly actually by making the connection between "cisgender" and sexual violence. IMO gender is a hierarchy and a system of control. It is used to subjugate and exploit girls and women and it is inextricably linked to violence against girls and women. Gender is strictly policed and enforced and sexual violence is part and parcel of that. Gender is why we have rape culture and all the rest of it. To my mind calling a woman "cis" is akin to telling her she embraces her sex's oppression and the violence used to enforce it.

I find it a creepy manipulative gaslighty word.

Thanks for starting this thread.

"But, then ... do people who have a gender identity think this isn't the problem? Do they think it's really different for us? Is it really different for us?"

There are some people who have sex-dysphoria or identify as transgendered who respect the reality of the systematic oppression of born-females, but they are a drop in the ocean among those and their allies who insist everyone denounces evidence and logic or be labelled a transphobe.

The system is patriarchy - male dominance (including other oppressive hierarchies, such as 'race'). Misogyny is necessary for maintaining patriarchy. Boys who are seen as 'less' than male, ie- a bit 'female', are subjected to misogynist bullying - sissy, pussy, girlie... etc. The masculine gender is about embodying stereotypes of dominance and entitlement, the feminine gender is about embodying placatory and subservient stereotypes.

And it is really different for us women, because issues like rape, forced marriage, forced pregnancy, denial of abortion - really have a huge impact on women's lives and autonomy and have been key to the sex-based oppression of females. Those who are born males never have and never will face those issues. However they will be socially punished for not being dominant, which can of course be deadly. But women's situation is a bit different since we are more likely to be killed by a current or former male partner.

Thank you, beach.

I agree with you. And I'm so sad about it all.

Means a lot to me to hear from you that I am making some kind of sense.

Recently, on Autostraddle (US lesbian site, if people don't know it), I saw someone in the comments explaining she was attracted to the physical bodies of women born women - so she wasn't a lesbian, because that would mean being attracted to women as a gender.

She was being very apologetic, and it seemed to me to be part of the same issue.

btw - I know men get raped too, but they won't get pregnant from it

"I saw someone in the comments explaining she was attracted to the physical bodies of women born women - so she wasn't a lesbian"

That is so tragic :(

Yes, that is tragic...gay marriage is now legal in all of the US. But lesbians feel like they can't be lesbians because of "progressive" ideas about gender...

I felt that, under.

I crossed with your last post before that (seems to be a habit!). But, yes, I know and follow what you are saying. But what I want to understand is what someone feels like, who feels they don't have this cisgender they think I have.

I can see, from talking to people, that there is something very real going on. But I do not see how it maps onto my experience.

rudely marking to read later

Not rude at all.