Being silenced/feeling voiceless

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Can we talk about this?

There were some amazing threads on here a few years ago, about rape and about 'small' sexual assaults, and I remember so many posters saying they'd suddenly found a way to talk about something that had shaped them as people. It seemed really powerful to me. But I was wondering if we're actually going backwards in terms of feeling able to speak up.

I was in a meeting yesterday, and noticing how some women (including me) do that classic 'I don't know if I'm saying this very well' kind of minimising of their own points. I was really struck that someone said 'I need to learn the language to say this' - as if she was being inarticulate, rather than as if people weren't bothering to listen to what she was saying (which was closer to the case).

I keep on feeling this way, especially about all the debates raging around gender identity issues - I just don't have the language to say what I want to say. I can't help feeling as if all of us who disagree are just miscommunicating. Does anyone else feel that? I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

Does anyone else feel like this?

I was drawn by the title of this thread because it was FWR that first put a name to the experience I've had, that of being silenced, in words and through the treatment I've received, because I'm female. I have been infantalised by my family, told what to think, what's good for me and what my role is expected to be, till I struggle to know who I am and what I really want.

My children are young so I'm around other young children a lot. I see the girls struggling to play properly in their pretty, glittery shoes that keep falling off, or trying to roller-blade in floor-sweeping handkerchief dresses and I wonder at what point style over substance starts to happen. When do you make the choice to look 'pretty' rather than practical and what influences that choice?

A lot of those choices are driven by availability, Bolleaux. If you are a relative or friend picking up some clothes or toys as a gift, there's so many gendered choices it's easier (and possibly cheaper) to pick one than to pick something unisex.

YY, that really hits the nail on the head, boll.

In a way, being dressed in pretty shoes that won't let you run is another kind of silencing - it's not letting you display and perform all the things you want to do. And gradually you get used to your body being contained and controlled, and not expressing what you want to say.

It does strike me that all of this is very physical, even though it's about language.

I think style over practically starts when children are really young, it's a choice made by parents in the first instance. I have two nieces. One has a mum who prioritises practicality - she has almost no dresses because she loves running and climbing and my sister can't afford to replace clothes that get wrecked. The other niece wears dresses often, and always has. Her parents think she looks lovely in dresses so that's what she wears a lot of the time, and always on special occasions. My sister recently told me it was hard finding leggings for her DD because "they all make her feet look big". Niece is 3 and wants to be a princess when she grows up.

I think there's something in the word 'pretty' that implies a lack of practicality. There's pressure on women to look 'pretty', and that gets passed down to daughters.

I know my post sounded judgemental, and I would add that I chose style over practicality last night and now my feet hurt, so I'm probs just a bit grumpy.

In other circumstances it was an aesthetically beautiful dress, but this was a 7 year old trying to roller blade. She almost broke her neck!

Yeah, my childhood was like that - a funny mix of impractical pretty dresses and my brother's hand-me-downs. But I think it is worse now - at least when I was little, in general, our mums seemed to expect that if we were wearing dresses we would probably be flashing our knickers and tearing them, and we'd get ticked off for tearing them, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Whereas now I keep seeing threads about schools insisting little girls need to wear shorts under their dresses for fear someone might see a flash of pants when they're playing.

Interesting discussion. I definitely relate to the issue about feeling silenced, but especially about feeling voiceless- that there are ideas and emotions I want to express but I can't put them into words, so I can't make them clear even to myself. My thoughts about 'cis' and how the word 'woman' is used especially. Personally, I am a woman because of my physical body, that's all. If someone else is a woman 'because they feel like a woman', well that isn't the same meaning, so we need to find new words to express these new meanings.

It also frustrates me that the language is such a huge flashpoint. I almost feel that we need someone to bring out a new dictionary of terms that are all neutral and non-offensive, then we could get back to discussing the actual issues. It seems so bloody obvious to me that a child should be able to wear what they want, play with what they want and make friends with whoever they want to with no judgement. Then it wouldn't matter what they identified as. In fact, I wish that we didn't even need to talk about gender- why do we need to 'identify' as something, why can't we just be ourselves?

Another thing I wanted to say, in reply to the comments above about 'pretty' girls clothes. Pretty doesn't have to equal impractical, and I don't like the assumption that if a girl wears ' pretty' clothes she won't engage in physical play. (Not that the posts above imply this, but I've seen the implication often elsewhere). My two girls both choose to wear dresses most of the time but they wouldn't let them restrict their play. I'm happy to let them choose and I don't like the idea of someone looking down on them for choosing the 'girly' option.

YY, innocent. I have heard other people say that about sport. I am not very sporty so I never felt as if it applied to me, but other physical things I've done make me feel similar, I think.

I particularly love knowing that the ways we understand strength are socially constructed, so my body is quite capable of strength, it's just we tend not to think of certain kinds of strength very much. So, I have a lot of stamina, and that is a way of being strong.

MrsK - YY, it is so frustrating.

I take your point, though, that pretty doesn't have to mean impractical. I discovered a few weeks ago that I can, in fact, climb trees wearing a pencil skirt and heels (not my choice - I was going after my niece who couldn't get down!). You need a surprising amount of upper-body strength if you can't really bend your knees.

But I also agree that often, the 'girly' option is something to be looked down on. I suppose that comes back to some of my issues with cis, too. We catch a lot of flack for performing femininity - and yes, that's an argument against doing it, but what I would really like would be for the world to change such that no one was associating femininity with weakness.

Doing a lot of fitness stuff had this effect for me, Innocent. It turned out to be a double-edged sword, as it made me more conventionally attractive. I got so much appearance-based feedback from all quarters, it became difficult to remember who I was really doing it for. As an ex-anorexic, it was really crucial to avoid thinking of it as a vanity/control thing but that's what everyone assumed and wanted to see. I wanted to maintain physical fitness - it was very simple - but even the trainers would rabbit on about my fat percentage and toning my . I spent a lot of time being very cross in the gym

And women kept telling me I was "tiny", like this is the most wonderful thing you can say to a woman! I am not fucking tiny! Why do people insist on saying stuff about women's bodies, anyway? I rarely hear men telling one another they look tiny, toned or sexy. We've all been trained to objectify women, including ourselves. It takes quite a bit of guts to break out of it.

Clearly it's just me with the pretty/impractical link then! I just can't think of things I would simultaneously describe as pretty and practical.

I've recently started running and I do find that people feel the need to ask me why. They seem to assume that I'm trying to lose weight or worried about my health, but actually I just enjoy it. Also, with the strength thing, I always assumed that I would never be able to do push ups or pull ups because I've been told so many times that women don't have upper body strength. My 'strength and flex' podcast disagrees, and promises that I will be able to do those things within 9 weeks of starting the programme.

My two girls both choose to wear dresses most of the time but they wouldn't let them restrict their play. I'm happy to let them choose and I don't like the idea of someone looking down on them for choosing the 'girly' option

Absolutely spot on. I really hate the sort of judgemental attitude on FWR about things which are pretty or feminine. If challenged the response is always but of course feminists don't tell you what you can or can't wear (just that you're too dim not to realise why you prefer dresses).

YY, I think one of the really valuable things about FWR is the way people constantly question this idea that pretty/feminine/'girly' things deserve to be sneered at. In my experience it is quite unusual and I really like it.

And yes, this is what I meant too: But why is it that we mentally equate being 'strong' with the ability to do things like pull ups rather than with endurance or balance/core strength (for example)? They all involve physical strength, but they are very different.

On the subject of what is 'pretty', there is a woman elsewhere on MN who is worrying about how her arms look, and she might appreciate some nice comments? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2413267-To-be-fed-up-hiding-my-arms-in-summer?

Interestingly it is already very much taking the same direction we've been discussing - people either advocating fitness training or reassuring her that she needn't worry.

I want a running skirt now. Even though I couldn't run for a bus! Where do you get them?

Lass, I see no judgemental attitude on this thread, apart from, ironically, you judging FWR!

It was me being judgemental, and I don't speak for FWR or feminism in general. I did admit it immediately, and pointed out that I make impractical choices too, so didn't mean to imply I look down on people (in general) that do.

However, I do judge my sister for putting her daughter in clothes which do restrict her play (I've seen it happen) and for actively avoiding choosing clothes for my niece which aren't good at hiding the fact that her feet are bigger than average.

The original poster who brought up girls playing in dresses was using a particular example where the impractical choice was restricting the girls' play, and was potentially dangerous. Worrying about children who's clothes are impacting them in this way is perfectly okay. It's not a judgement about how adult women choose to dress themselves.

I think the issue is, for some people, a little girl will only look 'pretty' if she is also constrained - eg., my granny, who was lovely, would not have thought any dress, however nice, would look good if I were dashing around doing cartwheels. It would only be 'pretty' if I were being more modest.

That is the problem, and I think you were using 'pretty' as a shorthand for that attitude, if I understand rightly?

It is common to conflate the two things and we can't comment on it without acknowledging that.