Being silenced/feeling voiceless

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Can we talk about this?

There were some amazing threads on here a few years ago, about rape and about 'small' sexual assaults, and I remember so many posters saying they'd suddenly found a way to talk about something that had shaped them as people. It seemed really powerful to me. But I was wondering if we're actually going backwards in terms of feeling able to speak up.

I was in a meeting yesterday, and noticing how some women (including me) do that classic 'I don't know if I'm saying this very well' kind of minimising of their own points. I was really struck that someone said 'I need to learn the language to say this' - as if she was being inarticulate, rather than as if people weren't bothering to listen to what she was saying (which was closer to the case).

I keep on feeling this way, especially about all the debates raging around gender identity issues - I just don't have the language to say what I want to say. I can't help feeling as if all of us who disagree are just miscommunicating. Does anyone else feel that? I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

Does anyone else feel like this?

Quite, beach.

Why male bodied people not fitting into masculine stereotypes has become a feminist issue is beyond me.

Women are not "not men". What's the problem with that?

And, yes it's about the body. On that we can all agree.

Sorry.

I went out for a few hours. I am going to do a huge post, because I'm a bit upset how this has gone and I do want to engage with things, if that's ok.

About the woman I mentioned, who was saying she couldn't be a lesbian because she was attracted to women's bodies not women as a gender: I am not trying to pick holes in the way people identify - if it works for them. What bothered me was that she seemed to be struggling for the language to say who she felt she was. That bothers me a lot.

ego, you said: But hey, why not start yet another fucking thread on stuff you don't really know about.

Actually, I started a thread about my own feelings. Not about being trans. And it's turned into a thread about being trans. Which I am not.

I started this thread because I feel upset and confused and I can't find the words to say what I'm feeling about myself. I don't deserve to be sworn at by you because of that, or to have you tell me that what I am talking about is you or someone else being trans.

notjust - thanks for saying you hear me.

I am not sure it is just difference of opinion, because that would be to do with trans issues. I think, there, it is simply not my issue, because I am not trans. If that is how someone else manages to live in a world that's very hard on them, then fair enough, and they should be supported. But I am struggling with my own sense of being unable to articulate something here, which is to do with identity and lived experience and society's refusal to give a voice to us.

I've read the rest of the thread, about bodies and trans issues, and I'm just going to leave it. I get that threads go off in all sorts of directions, and it's in the nature of MN. It's just that I've seen this debate so many times, and I hate it, so I'm going to steer clear of it.

About the woman I mentioned, who was saying she couldn't be a lesbian because she was attracted to women's bodies not women as a gender

Jeanne, I'm truly sorry you've felt upset by your thread. I think I understand it.

I'm afraid I don't feel that, on this thread (or several similar ones) your topic and the transwomen thing can be separated, because our ex-favourite transwoman has been all over it telling posters what they were trying to say. And getting it 90% wrong, but not listening to corrections, so it ended up being an illustration of the problem.

Wrt your friend - that's also related to trans* issues. Before gender became as important / more important than biological sex, "I'm sexually attracted to women" was a clear statement. Now it feels necessary to clarify whether one specifically means "to biologically female women", it feels more complicated. Worse, it can be made to feel wrong - exclusionary or discriminatory, as if sexual preference were a political choice. It's not so surprising that this accusation is more often levelled at women than men.

That particular issue, though, is limited to a small sector of society. Most people recognise that folks have sexual preferences: bulky rugby-player men or slender ones; tiny, delicate women or soft, rounded ones; black; blonde; Latin; Asian; younger; older; male; female ... there's no end to them! Any preference is valid, as long as it's legal.

Men have been telling women they shouldn't have preferences ever since the first woman said "sorry, you're just not my type."

This doesn't mean your friend has to listen to them

Sorry Jeanne

garlick, I do see that - they are related topics.

I just mean, though, that we always seem to have this debate from one end of things - talking about what it means to be trans - and I feel both that it is not a debate I am comfortable getting into because I don't know what it is like to be trans and don't want to upset people, and I also feel that it gets very, very angry very fast.

So I wanted to debate from the other end, and see if other women felt they were losing this language for expressing who we are and how we feel inside - or why we feel hurt and threatened by (basically) patriarchy, but especially by sexual violence.

The woman I quoted isn't a friend - I don't know her at all - I just felt it was such a telling example of someone feeling apologetic and also silenced by the way language was changing around her.

yonic - you've nothing to apologize for!

Reading over again, I think both ego and, earlier, nathalie, misunderstood what I was trying to get to in a way that shows me where the problem is.

Both of them seem to think (if I'm understanding rightly) that when I talk about feeling silenced or voiceless, I know deep down what I want to say, and I just don't feel able to say it. nathalie assumed there were 'uncomfortable truths' I knew and wasn't voicing, and ego seems to think that I secretly want to launch into a transphobic campaign (which I don't).

I do literally mean that I don't feel as if I have the language. It's not that I have sussed out how I feel about being a woman, and sexual violence, and just don't speak up. It's that I don't have the language, and I can identify things that seem relevant and have been nagging away at me, but I can't express what it is that makes these things nag at me so much.

It may all matter very little, but there we are.

Thank you, Jeanne.

I'm writing this for myself, mainly ...
Personally, I don't feel overly hurt or threatened by patriarchy or sexual violence. This would partly be due to having had to learn assertiveness. It's also partly to do with my feminism, which has become much clearer-cut and has given me language to describe many complex issues quite quickly. And my age - these days I feel more threatened by my disabilities, age and poverty than my sex or gender. Taking an overall view I can't separate those issues from patriarchy, but Feminism's only somewhat interested in them.

The anger you mention is extremely familiar. It's always been evident when feminists speak out. It used to be worse. It was very evident when gay people started coming out en masse. It's associated with race, class and religion, too. Society doesn't like threatened change to what 'society' sees as the natural order of things. The perceived natural order is patriarchal: it favours the fully-abled, heterosexual male; 'western' societies want him to be white and would prefer him to profess christianity. Societies can be extremely vicious towards perceived threats to this order, certainly going so far as to kill. So it's reasonable to feel anxious about speaking up!

But societies can be flexible and they do adapt. (Whether "The Patriarchy" does is another matter, dependent on how it's defined.) Adaptation comes after long, hard negotiations. Those are never easy: they involve a lot of bitter words; there is fighting; there are standoffs, over-adjustments and re-entrenchments. We can't expect it to be nice or easy. And, if we want change, we have to go for it!

Cross-posted. There's nothing wrong with rambling around your thoughts & feelings until somebody crystallises them for you, you know! That's what discussions are for

Thanks, garlick, that is interesting to read.

And thanks also for saying it's ok to talk. I wanted to have that discussion, I guess.

I think patriarchy/sexual violence makes me feel simultaneously aware of and alienated from my body, and it may be partly a lack of assertiveness, but I don't think it's just that. I'm reasonably good at being assertive in a lot of contexts. It's just that moment when you suddenly realize how other people are seeing your body, and that they think they are perfectly right to see it that way.

I'm so glad I was busy last night! jeanne, I'm personally really glad you started the thread. It has helped me to find the words to express my feelings. Now I have started to understand how I feel I can start to sort out which feelings are justified and which are things I need to address as being offensive.

laurie, I'm sorry you felt shouted down, and reading through the posts I can see why. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning and trying to understand.

The hijack of this thread has kind of proved the point. There are some people who want to keep others silenced and feeling voiceless. Discussing how I feel about my own body and sense of identity is allowed. I am allowed to do it without being attacked. I am sorry if anyone is upset or offended by how I feel about myself.

Jeanne I'm sorry you are upset.

I understand what you mean (I think). In my case, and I get that it isn't everybody's way, reading books by feminist thinkers helped me.

One book especially which is Right Wing Women by Dworkin (it is available as a PDF). I found it a painful book to read as Dworkin baldly (and brilliantly) homes in on what it is to be a woman in male dominated society. She also talks a bit about language and how even the words available to women to talk about themselves are male dominated and influenced by the male perspective.

Mary Daly is good on this too and I love how she invents the words she needs to in order to say what she wants.

When I first began reading the work of these women (and others such as Jeffreys, Rich, MacKinnon, etc) I was blown away by their incisiveness and sharp analysis, their ability to think and express things that I knew but I didn't know how to say. Partly because I didn't have the words but mostly because I actually found it hard to freely even think my thoughts. In my case this made me very aware of how socialized I am and how compliant and obedient I am. I was practicing (and still am) an Orwellian form of self censorship.

When I first read Right Wing Women I was struck by how radical (in the proper sense) it is. I couldn't believe that it got published, that somebody had allowed a woman to say such things. I wonder if it would get published today actually.

I don't know if any of that is relevant to you but I hope it helps in some way.

There is a collection of free feminist books here radfem.org/

Forgot to say something. I am increasingly aware of how many men think that they are the centre of women's discussions about ourselves. Yes, we may refer to men or male behaviour when we are talking about something, but that doesn't make them the focus of the subject.

Same goes for the sub set of men that are transwomen; as this thread shows.

jessica - thank you. Maybe, then, we can keep on discussing and just leave the trans debate to one side (insofar as that is possible - but I think it is possible, it doesn't have to be central and I do think it can become unhelpful).

beach - thank you. I'm fine - I'm not sitting here wailing at the computer, I just want to be honest that this is something upsetting. It seems to me that's a necessary point, because we are so used to minimising our own hurt and turning it inwards, and saying it must be our own fault.

I have read some of the books you recommend, but by no means all, and none of them cover to cover. Thank you for the link. I'll read some more, and slowly I'll get there.

I do think there are things written back then that would not be published today.

What you say about not being able to think your own thoughts - that really hit me. Yes, that's it.

Ok, this bit is a bit personal/self-indulgent, so ignore if you like, but it's what I was thinking.

I make a fair effort to like my body. I loved those threads from ages ago, about resisting femininity. I still look very much as if I'm performing femininity, and I'm happy with that, but I know how much I've been able to set down bits and pieces of the body shaming that was weighing in on me. And it is so good to get rid of those bits of self-policing.

But, at the same time, that makes me so aware of that very sharp divide between all the good work I can do to feel comfortable in my body, and the way society really doesn't have to do much work at all to make me suddenly feel awful again. I do all of these tiny incremental things, and I work at it, but it just takes one or two comments, or a grope in the street, or whatever, to remind me yes, I live in this society where my body will never be seen the way I feel about it from the inside.

Cross post.

I am increasingly aware of how many men think that they are the centre of women's discussions about ourselves.

Yes, this, with bells on.

I was recently talking about how liking women (in any sense) is so easily translated into 'man hating' and so many women agreed with me - even if we are simply indifferent and carrying on a separate conversation, there's a pressure to see women not talking about men as an assault on their unquestioned right to be the centre of attention. Always reminds me of this cartoon:

Like the cartoon. Off out just now but will come back to the discussion later. Thank you for starting this thoughtful thread.

Haha, nice pic.
Yes, the good old not giving men enough attention in some way = hating them. Lesbians obviously hate men, by loving women and not wishing to be in a relationship with a man.

It can be hard to talk about things when there aren't words that fit one's own experiences and feelings. There is a book about this, Man Made Language by the feminist Dale Spender - I haven't read it yet though.

I think part of my problem with being called (and expected to call myself) cis is that it's short for "cis gender". And I don't really believe in gender as an innate thing - I see it as a social construct. I recognise that others do believe in it, and have a strong sense of it. But I don't have a gender, and so I don't want to be called "cis gender". If it was short for "cis sex" then I'd be happy with that.

I think it's similar to religion, in a way. I know that there is a god. I can't explain how I know it, but it is massive part of my sense of self. Other people don't accept that there is such a thing as "god", and they think that it's a belief and a socialised one at that. I would never expect those people to label themselves in a way which assumed there is a god (like heathen, godless, heretic etc), I recognise that would be offensive. I'm happy to accept whatever word they want to use.

On the whole idea of feeling voiceless, that's part of why I get upset about the cis/trans debate. I want a word to describe "the group of people who have human female body parts". I need that word so that I can articulate why I care so much about sexual violence. When I'm told that I can't use the word "woman" as I always have, I feel that I'm being silenced and that I can no longer talk about sexual violence and how it disproportionally affects "the group of people who have human female body parts". Because I know full well that if I have to use that clunky phrase instead of a single word, people will stop listening to me.

And while I'm discussing feelings, that sense of being voiceless makes me frightened. And that fact i perceive it as other people silencing me makes me angry.

Oh, yes, Man Made Language - I read bits of that ages ago, but must read it properly again.

There's a lot of reading that I need to catch up on (and some of it I think I read when I was further back in my feminist awareness, so it probably didn't strike me in the way it might now).

I find the religion comparison useful too. Similarly, I believe there is a God. I can't say why and that doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter that other people don't believe, either, or that they want to attack that idea - because I can see how, to them, the violence and oppression organized religion has caused is so visible.

Also, I have friends who are trans and genderqueer and I can see quite clearly that it is meaningful and even life-preserving to them to have come to understand this about themselves. I don't know what it is they are understanding, but I can see them doing it. And I would not want to disrespect that. I want to support it.

But it feels as if somehow there isn't room for a conversation that lets us figure out what would be life-preserving for us, in the same way.

Geaaaagh. My language has gone to pot, hasn't it? 'Life preserving' sounds like something you hang off the side of a boat.

Sorry.

Just realised that I've written a massive post on cis/trans when you asked for the discussion to move on!

Personally, I think that language is a powerful tool. I had never really considered that the words we use are themselves part of the patriarchal society we live in. But I suppose it makes sense. Maybe that's why we don't have an inoffensive word for female genitalia similar to the word "willy" for boys. So girls start off with no way to describe their own bodies. I certainly didn't even know what a clitoris was until I was about 16. I was pretty shocked to find out that I had one!

Oh, I only want the discussion to move on in that I think it would be better to discuss (if you'll excuse the terms for now) the 'cis' end rather than the 'trans' end, because I think we tend to discuss the trans side of things, and that gets polemical very fast.

I found your post very helpful and thought provoking.

And the point about female genitalia, actually. We end up with these clunky circumlocutions like 'vagina-having-people are at risk of ...' and part of the reason they are so clunky is that the terminology is already a problem.

Just thinking out loud, but does it say something about society that all the words to describe female genitalia are either medical or offensive (or both)? Like I wouldn't be shocked to hear kids saying "bum" or "willy", but there's no word for girls to use. And around here, calling someone a cunt is the worst thing you could say, with twat a close second. But dickhead and penis are almost playful insults. Is it that female genitalia is offensive in a way that male genitalia isn't?!

This is a post about that - the author is a prof who works on this stuff. debuk.wordpress.com/2015/06/06/whats-yours-called/

I do think it is that female genitalia is offensive in a way male genitalia isn't. Sadly.