You were right

[DoughDoe]

So I was a bit confused about all the anti-trans posts in here. I didn't get it really. Transsexuals are victims, minorities, etc., why are you lot against them?

Now I have seen the story of Rachel Dolezal:

cdn.necolebitchie.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Rachel-Dolezal-10.png

who decided she was black and became a local NAACP president. When it was discovered that she wasn't, basically everyone has said she has no right to do this.

And suddenly it all makes sense to me. If we do not accept that people can make a relatively minor change from one skin pigmentation to another, and that a white person cannot become black, then we sure as hell shouldn't accept that a man with different bone, muscle, sexual organs, brain, chromosomes, and god knows what else, can POSSIBLY be a woman. And he CERTAINLY should not be participating in women's sports and other female spaces.

It's absurd, and it just makes you wonder why it is that if transracialism is so roundly rejected (no, you are not a black person, you are a white person with a bit of bronzer and an Afro), why we don't say that a transsexual is not in fact a woman, but simply a man in a dress.

o be honest ego I'm not interested I 'why'. I don't have any I in trans-issues, beyond the impact on women

It is not possible to transition from a man into a woman. The reason why, doesn't alter this

Ego, thank you. I'm too tired right now to post coherently on this but I think you've asked some valid questions.

Harvey, of course it's possible. Don't be ridiculous.

There is a massive series of 3 threads that covers all this already, so I'm not repeating it all here. I will try and link in a minute but 'female' is a word, a label used to describe the half of the population who gestate babies; xx chrosomes, uterus, vagina, mammary gland's etc. That is what the word means. It doesn't mean someone who wears frocks and cries at sad films

Ego, you mentioned choice (or lack of it for trans women) and feelings of desperation and suicidal thoughts are awful for anyone to experience but it doesn't automatically make the person correct in their beliefs. Feelings of desperation / suicide being the only solution are experienced by many but it doesn't mean they actually don't have options, but they can't find an alternative and often need help and support to find options.

link

I do have sympathy for the turmoil that transpeople live. I'm not going to stop using logic and living in reality though. Also, I don't think women pretending that trans people are exactly like them, will do anything to ease their suffering. It wont make them 'pass' any better. And its men that abuse and ridicule them. And men that have influence over employment etc gemerally

Ego - the disconnect is this Same for a transwoman. If they had transitioned / been treated at a young age, they would have experienced all the discrimination a girl gets because of being female. There would have been some biological issues that would not have affected them but generally they would have experienced life as a girl and a woman along with everything that entails

'some biological issues' - those biological issues are what makes a woman a woman. No matter how early they transition, a male cannot become female because they just don't have the equipment. Yes, they can take on external characteristics, they can therefore receive some of the experience of being a woman, but they can't ever actually be a woman.

We have great compassion for someone who is so unhappy, but it can't change biological reality.

As to why they would do it - my assumption was that they're trying to find anything that will relieve their pain, they hope that by doing this they will feel better - pretty much the same reasons any unhappy person tries things that might harm them - be it taking drugs, having a baby in a failing relationship, becoming obsessed with work, anorexia, or any number of other things.

What do you mean by accepting? We accept them as people, and we have great compassion.

Do you really mean validating? I don't think I have any moral responsibility to validate other people at all.

You're right. I, not we.

I have no right to speak for other people.

Oh wow yes that's really helpful, thanks Harvey. Because obviously that's all that being a trans woman involves.

I'm aware of those threads; I have read through them briefly. To be honest I find them quite difficult as I find it incredibly depressing that there's such an attitude towards trans people in 21st century Britain.

We're not beating the trans community - they can be trans, I have no problem with what they do to their bodies, or how they want to dress, live their day to day lives, I fully support people doing what they can to be happy

BUT that doesn't mean I have to say that they are a woman just like me, or that I agree with someone who is biologically male being counted as a woman in statistics, and granted all the same access to women only-spaces that I as a biological woman can access. It doesn't mean that I should stop using the word Woman to describe issues which affect biological females.

Day to day, for individuals I will obviously call someone 'she' I generally don't see an issue with a trans being in the lady's loos/changing rooms, but that's not a right, that's a privilege granted - sharing our safe space, as long as we can still keep it safe.

I think it just all needs to be reasonable.

ego transactivists don't like to address the question of "why?" unless it is an unquestioning of their narrative of "feels like a woman". There are links on the other threads to analysis that they are either homosexuals in homophobic cultures or autogynephiles. This questioning enrages transactivists. It's not women who are narrow-mindedly refusing to consider "why?"

The question of "why?" doesn't address the truth of the matter that men cannot become or be women. So the matter of "why do men want to be women?" should be "why do men want women to pretend they believe they are women?"

Of course they have a choice to transition. They may not have a choice about how they feel but they can certainly choose to do something about it.

What does being a woman inside actually mean? How does anyone feel like a woman? Liking stereotypically female things doesn't make you a woman.

I would think that transpeople transition because they wish to behave in a certain way that would not be seen as socially acceptable in a person of the sex that was assigned to them. A transwoman who wants to wear make-up and dresses is (more and more) accepted by society because they are seen as being 'really' a man. A man, who identifies as a man but wishes to wear dresses and make up- society as a whole doesn't know what to do with that. It would most likely be assumed that such a man was a transwoman.

That's how it appears to me, anyway- some behaviours and choices are, sadly, still only available to one gender. If we ever get to a point where a man could walk down the street in high heels, a dress and make-up, where every choice was seen as equally valid for either gender, will there still be many people desperately wishing/needing to transition? How many transwomen today transition and then spend their lives with no make-up, wearing jeans and making choices which are equally valid for men and women?

Yes, sorry, I, and the vast majority of people I've read on this board, are not beating the trans community (in fact I can't think of anyone who has, but there maybe someone I've forgotten and so am hedging my bets)

I don't know - I do know that people seem to be very happy to denounce Rachel as mentally disturbed and deluded, whilst knowing very little about her motivations.

I have no gender identity, so I don't have a handle on the struggles that trans people go through either

I'm not a psychologist, but from an external, lay point of view I do see similarities between Rachel's apparent desire to be black, trans desire to be a different gender, and anorexic's desire to be thinner,the other people who don't feel that their limbs are right, extreme plastic surgery, or any number of other people who look at their lives and see something that's making them unhappy and have to decide what can be done to fix it.

I think people are wild and varied, and some people make some very dramatic decisions, and other people decide to change their minds rather than their bodies.

chunky

I absolutely agree with what you are saying, you are expressing it much better than I ever would

Please feel free to include me in your 'we'