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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DP wants to go on new DC's BC

525 replies

Jackieharris · 18/05/2015 14:03

He has just raised this out of the blue.

He isn't on our eldest DC's bc. That's never caused a problem. Now he's saying he wants that changed too.

I know this is 'normal practice' (hence posting on fwr not aibu/chat/parenting/relationships) but it's made me really anxious.

It came so out of the blue, I didn't have much of a response prepared. I said it hadn't caused any problems so why change. I said I didn't want to give up my exclusive rights. He said why and I gave the hypothetical scenario of him running off with a younger woman then being able to restrict where I live etc after a split.

He knew about my stance on this before we had dc1. He knows I had a very bad relationship experience before him (life threatening violence, stalking and breaking into new house after break up type stuff) so I just won't ever feel 100% safe with any man ever and need to have the security that I could escape if that happened again. From my PoV if he was on bc he could potentially use this power to continue to abuse me even if I left. (So many threads like that on relationships board and I know some irl examples too)

As long as he was never violent I'd always let him have fair access to dcs so I said to him why does he want it unless he doesn't trust me?

I'm now going to be constantly worried he'll bring it up again. Maybe he won't. I'll not mention it if he doesn't.

OP posts:
Reginafalangie · 19/05/2015 01:14

Why bother commenting if you can't be arsed to read the entire thread Hmm

Coyoacan · 19/05/2015 01:28

Why bother commenting if you can't be arsed to read the entire thread
Because I am answering the OP's question, which from a quick scan of the thread, is not really being answered by most of the other posters.

As I said in my comment, either he trusts her to respect his position as father, as long as he is not harmful to the children, or she trusts him and puts him on the birth cert.

I don't see the problem with him having to be the one to trust.

Reginafalangie · 19/05/2015 01:31

Why should it be her decision?

And many posters have answered her question so maybe you should have read the thread.

Canyouforgiveher · 19/05/2015 02:07

I am disheartened at how many posters see a child's birth certificate as legitimate fodder for dealing with the parent's issues.

In this thread clearly the OP needs continuing support for her deep-seated trust issues. I would think the OP's partner needs help and support too.

But in the end of the day as another poster said the birth certificate is about the CHILD - not the parents. The child deserves to have the accuracy and truth of her birth recorded. it matters - for all sorts of recording/ historical/medical reasons. And this too is a feminist issue.

I find most of this thread bizarre because it is about the parents - is he right, is she right, does her experience of oppression warrant this, does his love of his children warrant that. What about the bloody children? What do they deserve - would the truth be too much? or do adults issues trump that? father unknown is a lie.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 19/05/2015 02:13

The problem with what you are doing is that you are acting in the best interests of you - not in the best interests of your children.

If you two were to split up he could get parental responsibility very easily - he's their biological father who has been an active part of their upbringing since their birth - why would a court deny it?

And then he argues that you put your own interests ahead of those of your children, that you are still suffering from emotional problems from your previous relationship which make you unable to put the children first, that you see the children as your possessions not as people with thoughts and feelings of their own, that he and his new OW can provide a lovely stable home............

Put that in the hands of a misogynistic judge and you could find residence being reversed and you being the one with just access very very quickly.

Please be careful here. You are putting your relationship at risk. If something was to happen to your dp then your children will never be able to get an accurate birth certificate that recognises their loving daddy for who he is. And you are setting yourself up to be three steps behind in any court fight as the unreasonable man hater.

Your partner should never have agreed to not being in the birth certificate. It was a ridiculously unfair thing for you to ask him and the fact that he agreed shows how much he loves you. The fact that he no longer agrees shows that he loves the children even more. And that is how it should be.

Mumoftwoyoungkids · 19/05/2015 02:15

Cross posted with Canyou but WSS.

almondcakes · 19/05/2015 02:30

I can see three main points here.

The first is that, as many posters seem to agree, birth certificates are an important legal document that form a record of who a child's parents are. Everybody should have access to that information about themselves. Given that people seem to agree on that, it is quite extraordinary that we ever allow that to be threatened by using it as a mechanism to award fathers parental responsibility. As ten percent of children are born to non resident fathers, many of who either are not suitable to have or do not want parental responsibility, why are they awarded that through the birth certificate? It must put women off declaring a father on the certificate.

In your case Jackie, the father is resident and has been for a long time, so he would easily get parental responsibility. For any practical purpose, you are not any more secure by keeping his name off it. It is not going to change anything about what could happen to you in the future legally if he is named.

So the real issue is that a. you both came to an agreement over something that was extremely important to you, b. you became pregnant believing that agreement would remain and c. now that you are pregnant, he is going back on that agreement.

Some of the people on this thread believe that asking someone to do that makes you an abuser. If that is the case, then surely they should be advising you to leave.

It seems to that very many people have all manner of issues from their pasts that partners accommodate. There are people with agoraphobia, social anxiety, OCD, manic depression and so on who are accommodated in quite extreme demands because their partner accepts their past. There are also people who have quite extreme ways of living due to religion. I don't consider those demands abusive, but I also think it is ethical for a person to leave such a situation if they can no longer deal with the way the other person has to live their life.

What I do think is unethical is to plan a pregnancy with a woman having agreed to certain ways of living she needs as a coping mechanism, and then announce during the pregnancy you don't intend to abide by them, but still intend to remain within the relationship.

What is the woman supposed to do? She is already pregnant. She cannot go back on the decision to be pregnant; she is in a vulnerable situation. The advice to get counselling may work, but maybe the OP has already had counselling. I know plenty of people who just live with their issues day by day, and have done for decades, because frequently counselling does not work.

I think you need to know why he has changed his mind at this point. Why didn't he mention this before you got pregnant. Because even if people do think your request for him not to be included it is not okay to deal with an abusive situation by abusing back, especially not if you live with kids as well.

Abuse isn't about requesting something, howver unreasonable we may consider the request to be. He can get his name on that certificate with mo further reference to you. You can't control that unless you are also doing something abusive to enforce it. Abuse is about having the ability to enforce requests and using that ability. You can deprive someone of money if you are the main breadwinner, you can prevent someone from leaving through financial control, you can socially isolate someone by refusing to do any child are of have a babysitter in the house. You has no power to enforce your request, as far as we know.

So the key here is why now? Because if the why now is, I lied to you and manipulated you into believing I agreed with you, but really I was just waiting until you got pregnant so that I could do the opposite knowing it was too late for you to back out, then you really can't trust him. Because that would mean he is prepared to use pregnancy as a means of controlling you.

But if that isn't the reason, and there could be others - a sudden death or hospital stay of a close family member made him re-evaluate family arrangements for example - you can probably talk things through and work that out so you both felt loved and respected.

But agreeing to a major thing with a woman, and then announcing you have no intention of sticking to it once she's pregnant and it is too late for her to back out, always concerning, whatever the thing agreed to was. And of course, one of the most popular ways of abusing women ever. So I'd want to know if I were you, is this the start of a pattern of controlling you through pregnancy and children, or is it just very unfortunate timing.

DadWasHere · 19/05/2015 02:33

so I just won't ever feel 100% safe with any man ever

Don't let believing you cant get to 100% become the reason you stay where you are on the scale right now. You dont ever have to feel 100% safe but you appear to seriously need to feel safer than you currently do. You should seek professional counselling about this and your partner should have private time with the counsellor as well.

Reginafalangie · 19/05/2015 02:42

This is their 3rd DC together so not exactly as you portray the situation almond

Also why does it have to be the DP who is at fault...yet again?

How do we know the OP didn't wait until she was pregnant with the first DC before she announced she didn't want him on the BC? So that he was forced to agree to remain in his child's and partners life?

Look at the reason/example she gave...him running off with a younger women. Nothing to do with him potentially becoming abusive.

Maybe 3 DC in the DP feels he has kowtowed to her unreasonable demands enough? Maybe HE feels insecure in the relationship and fears the OP will take his children away.

We no none of what has really being said but yet again the man who isn't abusive and is a good father is to blame Hmm

Canyouforgiveher · 19/05/2015 02:49

So the key here is why now? Because if the why now is, I lied to you and manipulated you into believing I agreed with you, but really I was just waiting until you got pregnant so that I could do the opposite knowing it was too late for you to back out, then you really can't trust him. Because that would mean he is prepared to use pregnancy as a means of controlling you.

Is this for real? Talking about "lying and manipulating" ...about an involved father who is in a relationship - long term- with his partner - and who wishes to have his name put on his actual biological children's birth certificate. Those children he is presumably rearing and supporting and loving?

the words lying and manipulating in this context are absurd.

Extrapolating that a man is controlling and abusive because he would quite like his name to be on his children's birth certificate is absurd. Lots of this thread is absurd.

Except it affects children who have no voice. Then it is not absurd. It is potentially controlling and abusive of the children involved -who have no voice in this.

This is not about the mother (I think we all agree that the father has rights anyway so name on birth cert is irrelevant and I think we all agree this particular mother needs help dealing with her past).

this is about the children.

almondcakes · 19/05/2015 02:55

I am not saying that he is controlling or manipulative or that he is to blame. I am saying the OP needs to find out why he is saying this now.

From what the OP has said, there had been a very long period of time where he did agree to this, and now he has changed his mind.

It is impossible for her to know why until they sit down and discuss it.

Reginafalangie · 19/05/2015 03:00

Well you could have just said that instead of a huge post calling the DP manipulative and abusive cos lets face it that was the tone of your first post completely!

OP has already said she doesn't want to discuss it.

almondcakes · 19/05/2015 03:00

And it isn't about the children. Parents are imperfect. We all make decisions, often major ones, that benefit ourselves at the expense of our children. And the OP has felt she needed to do this.

Reginafalangie · 19/05/2015 03:03

Yes and now the DP feels he needs to be on his childs BC. I don't see why he is in the wrong?

almondcakes · 19/05/2015 03:04

No I didn't say that, Regina. I said if the reason he brought this up now was because he lied earlier until the OP was pregnant, that would be controlling. I then gave examples of other reasons why he he might have changed his mind and finished by saying it might just be unfortunate timing.

The OP needs to ask him why now.

Reginafalangie · 19/05/2015 03:08

How do you know he lied?

Maybe at the time with his first DC he didn't realise what significance his being legally recognised as the father had. Maybe the OP manipulated his naivety so that she retained exclusive rights to the children. Maybe she told him he could be added at a later date. Surely the manipulator and liar then becomes the OP?

You were very quick to paint the DP in a bad light you gave no thought to what part the OP has played in this.

Canyouforgiveher · 19/05/2015 03:10

but the why should start from the point of view that it is natural and normal for a father to want to be named as such on his children's birth certificate.

It is likely that he trod carefully with his OP because of her past but now is thinking why should I be off the official record when I am actually a father. (it it worth noting that I and presumably many women on MN would never have had a child with someone whose issues were so deep that they would have denied our parenthood of our own children - in fact that would be regarded as nutso stuff)

The OP has said she has been with this man for a long while.

It is far more obvious to me why the father is asking for normal acknowledgment of fatherhood and responsibilities than why they should be denied to him, Why does he need to justify this?

And in the end of the day - who cares? two adults figuring it all out. Why should this affect the rights and needs of their children - the most basic needs include knowing where you come from, who your parents are.

Forget the parents. The answer to this thread should be about the children.

almondcakes · 19/05/2015 03:14

We don't know that he is in the wrong. We just know the OP is anxious about it.

I know people with kids who can't leave the house without an hour's notice because they have OCD, or who are hospitalised after every birth with serious mental health problems, or who have recurrent bouts of depression, or who can't eat a meal with their kids because of eating disorders.

All of this is imperfect, but there's no point saying to a pregnant woman, right, enough of you and your coping mechanisms, something else would be better for the kids, pull yourself together, I am putting my foot down. Mental health doesn't work that way.

And that isn't what the partner is saying, but it is the attitude of some posters on this thread. So OP needs to talk though her feelings, and find out why her partner is now uncomfortable with the agreements and what his feelings are , and see if they can work this out. Because this is currently about feelings and a relationship, not some rights and wrongs in a court battle.

Canyouforgiveher · 19/05/2015 03:14

but the why should start from the point of view that it is natural and normal for a father to want to be named as such on his children's birth certificate.

In the end of the day - what do we have? two adults figuring it all out about themselves and their issues - particularly the OP - with their lives and experiences etc. Great for them. What about their children?

Why should any of their past affect the basic rights and needs of their children - and the most basic needs include knowing where you come from, who your parents are.

Forget the parents. The answer to this thread should be about the children.

Reginafalangie · 19/05/2015 03:17

I agree with you almond in regards to her needing to discuss it with her DP. What I didn't agree with was your lengthy first post and all the words you used to describe her DP or why he may have done this. As I said you were very quick to paint this man in as poor a light as possible.

almondcakes · 19/05/2015 03:21

Again, Regina, I did not say he lied. I said if he lied, then X, and if another reason then Y.

I don't know the OP hasn't lied. I don't even know if the OP even has kids or a partner. She could be making the whole thing up. But we can only advise the OP based on the information she gives us.

Unless of course we're not actually interested in what the OP has said, and just want to make up a totally random version of events that pit an imaginary man and woman against each other according to our own expectations of how men and women behave.

But I'm going to go along with the assumption the partner is a real person and the OP should just ask him why he is doing this now.

Certainly when my partner and I changed legal arrangements regarding the children, it was due to an accident in the family, which is why I suggested it as a possible reason.

Reginafalangie · 19/05/2015 03:28

My point is that you directed your whole post against the DP. If he lied. He is a manipulator.

At no point was any of your post saying actually OP why did he agree in the first instance? Did you manipulate him? Did you lie to him?
Nope it was all about the DP being in the wrong.

The OP I doubt is lying. She has a good position within her relationship in regards to decision making/she is the main wage earner/he is SAHP/ she was angered by him wanting to take on work and be a part time instead of full time SAHP. See these are all things the OP has left out of this thread on purpose.....I wonder why? Was it to ensure people saw her as the victim and agree that she was/is in the right to not want him on the BC?

The OP is the controlling one and that is clear in regards to how she sees her DC as her property and that her only fear is not potential abuse but him running off and then restricting where she lives as she stated in her OP.

almondcakes · 19/05/2015 03:28

Canyougiveher, this is neither a basic right nor need of children. There are lots of children who have no father on their birth certificate because the father declined. It is entirely the right of the father to decide whether or not he wants on the birth certificate. Children do not have a legal right to this.

If you think they should, then campaign to remove that right from fathers and put in mandatory paternity testing and recording of men's names. But it is a fiction to claim society has given children that right.

almondcakes · 19/05/2015 03:36

Regina, I didn't direct the whole thing against the partner.

I pointed out:

A. Making such a request as the OP did was abusive if means were being used to enforce the request. And said we didn't know that was the case.

B. Said, if the OP was abusive, it wasn't justifiable to abuse back when children were involved.

C. The partner was being abusive if he lied. And said he might not have done, there might have been other reasons.

Reginafalangie · 19/05/2015 03:39

Come off it. I have just read your post again and your whole tone is negative towards the partner. At no point did you use any of those words towards the OP. It was all in defense of the OP.