I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

[nikkinack]

Sorry for another thread on the topic, but I was looking at my local candidates and the only female candidate is for the Green party, and she has retweeted that phrase (with the addition "Transmen are men) a couple of times today.

It seems like doublethink to me, every time I try to unpick the statement I get all messed up in the process.

So, if transwomen are women, why call them transwomen? Surely just by defining them as transwomen you are saying they are different to women? Transwomen can't insist on women using the label cis and then lay claim to the standalone word 'woman'.

So transwomen are women, ciswomen are women. The word woman applies to people of either category, but they are still separate categories within the single word, which we can't describe. We are not the same, but to state 'Transwomen are women' is to insist that we are.

I don't know how anyone who makes this statement can square all of this. It hurts my head just trying to work out what they mean.

I don't understand. I don't understand why this is such an issue.

Someone who is mtf transgender is not the same as I am from a "being a woman" perspective; in our experience of the world, in our upbringing/socialisation, in our physical biology. That is not bias or bigotry - that is just how it is. I don't seek to exclude, I seek to be defined as I see myself and as I group myself. It upsets me when that view of my own identity is conflated with things it is not.

Most people define woman as "born biologically female and raised biologically female". BILLIONS of people fit into that description of "woman". That's real. Those people may be perceived as having a less valid global voice than the left wing chattering classes, but that doesn't and shouldn't make their sense of self-identity invalid, nor the needs associated with their biological and social status as women.

I have every sympathy for mtf trans people, it must be a very difficult journey and place to be, but please stop appropriating.

"Mary, some of the articles on your wiki link were about how gay men have the same brain structures as straight women. Do you think that gay men are actually women too?"

No but then i read the article fully and saw that while homosexual men do have some areas that are similar to women's and less like mens the structures and densities are not as dense and structured as women's but are more dense than mens. While other areas are the same as heterosexual mens brains.

So no according to the findings if we were to draw a line with women at one end and men on the other they would perhaps be between 25% to 50% towards the womens end.

That is a poor example as its more complex than that but its gives you the basic idea.

Mary, so if it were possible, with technological advances, to easily scan everyone's brains, would you then divide everyone up based on their brain scans, into separate showering facilities and similar?

Because when people claim there are male and female brain differences, it is usually connected to things like spatial reasoning skills. I don't actually intend to do any non verbal reasoning tasks - map reading and so on, in the shower, so am not sure why I need to do so in the company of people with a similar level of map reading skill.

Everyone has rights, but sometimes those rights clash. Which demographic has to make space for the other is an exceptionally complicated thing to figure out. However, given that spaces are generally not set aside specifically for trans, then a choice has to be made. So, whilst someone can be SHOUTY CAPS about the connotations of a trans woman in a female changing room, surely they can also have the humanity to understand tge connotations of a trans woman in a male changing room.

Women's very real fear of the very real risk of male violence isn't petty. I find it quite surprising a woman would think it was.

I suppose its a matter of perspective.

I do not think about being raped walking to my car even though i was gang raped and tortured in the past (the gang consisted of men and women fyi).

Yet some women worry about it all the time so i am told. After speaking to men where i work and asking them about violence etc they told me that they never think about violence much at all and never think about being murdered.

So looking at the statistics a man is far more likely to be violently attacked than a woman or child and is far more likely to be murdered than a woman or child.

In fact a man is far more likely to be murdered that a women is likely to be raped walking to her car yet men never think about it at all let alone let it bother them to a point they become a blubbering imbecile about it and cannot go on without a lot of attention paid to them and their feelings on the matter.

So why is it that the most protected class (WOMEN who are now even more protected than children) and the LEAST likely class to suffer a violent attack are the ones that go on about it the most?

The victim routine and the rape culture meme are really not the sort of things that go hand in hand with the concept of "strong and independent" in my opinion.

So the risk to women and transwomen is from men? So why is it women who have to make the adjustment?
It's hardly a new idea for women to have to suppress their fear and discomfort in order to meet the needs of men. Same old, same old.

Then why not set aside spaces specifically for trans people? Why do cis women have to take the hit? I have humanity towards both trans women and cis women, but the latter are being steamrollered by mainstream opinion in this debate. Women's fears of male sexual violence is being painted as bigotry and it's outrageous.

And I wasn't being shout-y about trans people in single sex spaces actually, I was cross about your comparing homophobic hostility to gay men in the military and feminist objections to trans women in women-only spaces. An offensive comparison I think, since the implication is that radical feminists are being irrationally bigoted.

I'm not going to engage with you further mary because I find your misogyny a bit worrying and some of the stuff you say quite disturbing. Describing women fearing male violence as being 'blubbering imbeciles' is really offensive.
I'm sorry that happened to you and I hope you are getting some real life support with it.

And mary - "blubbering imbecile"?? Really??

ok I'm signing off the internet for this evening, too grumpy.

In a feminist context, I tend to think of a patriarch as someone who believes that the gendered hierarchy of society, which underpins the oppression of female people, is a good thing. This can include e.g. a page 3 model or a prime minister or a billionaire. I don't see why Clarkson is a patriarch, but "young left wing men and women", who approve of the gender hierarchy and influence trans legislation, apparently aren't patriarchs.

My point was that do you really think there is anything but a small , vocal minority who agree with these extremists? Do you really think there are Page 3 girls/ Clarkson clones queuing up to support these views because " hey that'll be one over the feminists"

"So the risk to women and transwomen is from men? So why is it women who have to make the adjustment?
It's hardly a new idea for women to have to suppress their fear and discomfort in order to meet the needs of men. Same old, same old."

Same old, same old?

I am pretty sure that every civilization up until now was built by men while women were provided for and protected and for almost all of that time (250,000 years or so) it seems to me that without a grocery store on every corner, air-conditioning and all the mod cons we first world people enjoy women in those days were quit content to let men tame the wilderness and do all the building.

I am part owner of a groundwork and landscaping company and i have worked on building sites for all my life and i can drive any site vehicle there is but i could not get up a ladder with a full hod of bricks or tiles on my shoulder even at my fittest and strongest let alone do it all day and fast enough to keep a bricklayer or tiler happy.

So who had the needs for most of human existence when it was a lot harder to get by that carrying a hod of bricks? First world women know nothing of discomfort and have their every need met and met by men still.

Go find a building site and watch the work going on then multiply it by about 50 for what it was like just a few hundred years ago.

...wanders onto thread...

God the transphobia among MN feminists is depressing!

I don't find the line 'transwomen are women' at all controversial, but clearly I'm in the minority here.

...sits on hands because there's no point in arguing with people who have already made up their minds.

Bright, sadly "vocal" (no matter how niche) is the entire issue. Vocal is what gets listened to. Vocal is what gets legislated for. Vocal is what decides the future. No one in power actually surveys the real feelings of everyone before they make a decision.

I am pretty sure that every civilization up until now was built by men while women were provided for and protected and for almost all of that time (250,000 years or so) it seems to me that without a grocery store on every corner, air-conditioning and all the mod cons we first world people enjoy women in those days were quit content to let men tame the wilderness and do all the building.

But oh dear Mary. You're not a historian, are you?

Ok I know I said I would leave this thread! Last comment and then I'm going to bed -

mary if women didn't give birth to children and keep then alive through constant self-sacrifice, there would be no more humans on the planet. Head on over to the Mn threads about childbirth horror stories if you want to see stories of first world women's "discomfort". Or head on over to the red pillers on reddit if you want ideological allies.

Ok done. I'm not engaging anymore.

"I'm not going to engage with you further mary because I find your misogyny a bit worrying and some of the stuff you say quite disturbing. Describing women fearing male violence as being 'blubbering imbeciles' is really offensive.
I'm sorry that happened to you and I hope you are getting some real life support with it."

I find the most protected and provided for class being also the most vocal about violence and the most demanding and entitled offensive to be honest.

I also find accusations of misogyny to be utterly pathetic when describing a person who disagrees with a gender feminist, ignoring that it would mean hating myself and many of my closest friends it shoes the arrogance of gender feminists because you think you speak for all women. Odd considering about 70% do not identify with the "patriarchy, misogynistic, man hating" worldview it spews.

I had support now i have a life.

"So who had the needs for most of human existence when it was a lot harder to get by that carrying a hod of bricks? First world women know nothing of discomfort and have their every need met and met by men still. "

Between 10 and 30% of women died of childbed fever in the Middle Ages. Many more died giving birth. Women have done their bit through history dying for humanity, but somehow that's never set against the men dying in war and physical labour. Could it be because history views the acts of men as more significant?

Anyway, Mary, you've reached the same point you did the other night, attacking people engaging with you politely. So I am another who won't be engaging again. I wish you well.

"mary if women didn't give birth to children and keep then alive through constant self-sacrifice, there would be no more humans on the planet. Head on over to the Mn threads about childbirth horror stories if you want to see stories of first world women's "discomfort". Or head on over to the red pillers on reddit if you want ideological allies. "

WOW a whole natural biological function we were born with and used in all those 250,000 years i cannot wait to see what we can achieve next!!!!

Imagine how bad it would still be if men had not invented and innovated ways to make childbirth far less painful and fatal.....(oh wait that would be “benevolent sexism” by gender feminists standards right?)......damn those tricky misogynists.

I find some of what Mary says problematic. But there's a valid point being made within that. Trans women are a group more likely to suffer violence than just about anyone else. It's all very well saying that we should make trans-safe spaces, but that doesn't answer the question of what happens before those spaces are created. Where is a trans-woman going to feel safest? In the male facilities or the female ones?

If we want to talk about privilege who has more - women or trans women?

Gowether, I think it is misleading to say that there is any great move to create those spaces. No law has been created to put unisex facilities in place as the standard in new buildings.

Mary, you are lauding men for the biological function of physical strength, but disparaging women for the biological function of childbirth?

Really disengaging now.

I am pretty sure that every civilization up until now was built by men while women were provided for and protected and for almost all of that time

What????? Have you read/seen nothing about who does the majority of (unpaid yet essential) work in most places in the world? A developed world 21st century view of "hard work (man stylee)" may make the people doing it feel good but on an effort or importance basis it doesn't trump the drudge work women do throughout the world without which society as we know it would grind to a rapid halt.

This is a also continuum from the past, not a new trend. I see no evidence of women being "provided for" on an historical scale. Unless you mean "earning money" which conveniently women have been prevented from doing a lot of the time in a lot of places over the course of human history.

"Provided for" is sitting on your arse eating peeled grapes. It seems to me that it's much more likely to be a bloke eating the grapes if I look at history.

Mary, do you ever go to London? The Waterloo Bridge is built exclusively by women. Just one example.

It's all very well saying that we should make trans-safe spaces, but that doesn't answer the question of what happens before those spaces are created. Where is a trans-woman going to feel safest? In the male facilities or the female ones?

With respect, I don't think that it's my responsibility to solve this and provide safe haven. Why should it be?

almondcakes I fear we have a misunderstanding; I didn't say that. I was responding to a previous comment that said that we should have trans-spaces instead of women born women budging up. I agreed with that comment in theory, but wanted to point out the reality of the current situation.