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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

316 replies

nikkinack · 09/03/2015 16:43

Sorry for another thread on the topic, but I was looking at my local candidates and the only female candidate is for the Green party, and she has retweeted that phrase (with the addition "Transmen are men) a couple of times today.

It seems like doublethink to me, every time I try to unpick the statement I get all messed up in the process.

So, if transwomen are women, why call them transwomen? Surely just by defining them as transwomen you are saying they are different to women? Transwomen can't insist on women using the label cis and then lay claim to the standalone word 'woman'.

So transwomen are women, ciswomen are women. The word woman applies to people of either category, but they are still separate categories within the single word, which we can't describe. We are not the same, but to state 'Transwomen are women' is to insist that we are.

I don't know how anyone who makes this statement can square all of this. It hurts my head just trying to work out what they mean.

OP posts:
TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 06:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/03/2015 06:58

I cannot take seriously anyone who describes women who have a fear of male violence as "blubbering imbeciles". Fear of male violence is well-founded and evidence-based. That kind of language shows quite a lot of contempt for women.

TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 07:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/03/2015 07:04

(What's a pbp?)

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 12/03/2015 07:07

Previously banned poster.

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 07:40

Zhou et al. (1995)

It found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal.

www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html

Kruijver et al. (2000)

looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.

press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564

In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.

brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132

Luders et al. (2009),

24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. There was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern. Although it did show that regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/

Rametti et al. (2010)

An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. They discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."

www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract

Ramachandran (2008)

They found that while nearly two thirds of non-transsexual males who have a penis surgically removed experience the sensation of a phantom penis, only one third of MTF transsexuals do so after sex reassignment surgery. This study, however, overlooks the differences between an amputation, where the nerves connecting the penis and the brain are severed, and male-to-female gender reassignment surgery, where some of the penis and scrotum may be reused to create a vaginal canal, labia and a clitoris. In this case, some of the nerves connecting the new genitalia to the brain remain largely intact. Also, two-thirds of FTM transsexuals reported the sensation of a phantom penis from childhood onwards, complete with phantom erections and other phenomena.

www.ingentaconnect.com/content/imp/jcs/2008/00000015/00000001/art00001?token=003a1640522e8f7e2a46762c6b665d7a663b2553236e457a673f582f47

Berglund et al. (2008),

Tested the response of gynephilic MTF transsexuals to two sex pheromones: the progestin-like 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like 1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST). Despite the difference in sexuality, the MTFs' hypothalamic networks activated in response to AND, like the androphilic female control groups. Both groups experienced amygdala activation in response to EST. Male control groups (gynephilic) experienced hypothalamic activation in response to EST. However, the MTF subjects also experienced limited hypothalamic activation to EST as well.

The researchers' conclusion was, that in terms of pheromone activation, MTF's occupy an intermediate position with predominantly female features.

cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/8/1900

Schneider, Pickel, and Stalla (2006)

Prenatal androgen exposure, the lack thereof, or poor sensitivity to prenatal androgens are commonly cited mechanisms to explain the above discoveries. Schneider, Pickel, and Stalla (2006) found a correlation between digit ratio (a generally accepted marker for prenatal androgen exposure) and male to female transsexualism. MTF transsexuals were found to have a higher digit ratio than control males, but one that was comparable to control females.

Hare et al.

The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. They found that male-to-female transsexuals were found to have longer repetitions of the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexualism but not MTF transsexualism. Most notably, the FTM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.

www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282%2807%2901228-9/abstract

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 07:42

Women do the majority of farm work across the world. Growing food generates wealth.

Skipping from first world to third world countries is not a good methodology.

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 07:54

I cannot take seriously anyone who describes women who have a fear of male violence as "blubbering imbeciles". Fear of male violence is well-founded and evidence-based. That kind of language shows quite a lot of contempt for women.

Then why is it that women who are the least likely to suffer from physical violence are the most vocal about it happening?

I am against all violence towards anybody regardless of gender and have contempt for those who resort to it be they male or female, but given the fact that women are by far the least likely to suffer from a violent attack being also the most vocal and fearful of it is not logical. Portraying violence as a crime primarily against women has clearly terrified and made women so paranoid about it that it is the entire focus of western society rather than focusing on violence itself without a bias towards one gender being the victim and one the perpetrator (see domestic violence against men for example).

My contempt is also towards fear mongers who peddle their wares for political and social gain while disregarding the unwarranted level of fear it creates in the very women they claim to be acting on behalf of.

SoMuchForSubtlety · 12/03/2015 07:58

I don't think violence is being portrayed as a crime mostly perpetrated against women. I think violence against women is being correctly highlighted as mostly perpetrated by men. That's two entirely different points.

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 08:00

'She' is a pbp. I've reported.

Ban me again for posting my opinion and il not return but if you think that creating a echo chamber that is free from dissenting opinion, where only insults and harsh opinions against men are permitted then you are in a downward spiral.

Nothing i have said would be considered harsh if it had been against men in fact my points are tame compared to some i have seen on here but as they do not fit with the ideology of gender feminism they are considered ban-able offenses apparently.

And you wonder why over 70% of women do not identify with being feminists any more.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 12/03/2015 08:02

SoMuch. The poster named Mary isn't worth your time or effort. They will be banned again for the troll they are. No doubt another Mary26butthurt will be along tomorrow to cite dodgy studies and add to their insults toward women. It might take a while, because of the party last night, but it will happen.

SandorClegane · 12/03/2015 08:03

Why did mnhq ban you before mary?

PuffinsAreFictitious · 12/03/2015 08:04

Because he lied, Sandor.

TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 08:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 08:09

This reply has been deleted

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TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 08:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mariamin · 12/03/2015 08:18

It is statistically meaningless to extrapolate the annual risk of Trans people being murdered, if one Trans person has being murdered.

SoMuchForSubtlety · 12/03/2015 08:19

Ah. Thanks Puffins.

GibberingFlapdoodle · 12/03/2015 09:04

And perhaps, Still (and others) we can begin to see the danger of these people. Mumsnet feminist boards being covered by this kind of anti-women trash in droves. Blogs covering the topic on the women's side being covered in abusive comments. Glosswitch, when her blog raised the issue, being doxxed and having her kids threatened. Lib dem and green members of parliament calling any woman who dares dissent names. University campuses refusing platforms to dissenting women speakers.

I really don't like the looks of this.

GibberingFlapdoodle · 12/03/2015 09:06

By the way, blackrider, how did you know they were a pbp? Might be useful to have more eyes open?

GibberingFlapdoodle · 12/03/2015 09:07

2nd thought don't put that on here!

rivetingrosie · 12/03/2015 09:21

To anyone who feels that the views expressed here at transphobic, please note that mary (a misogynist troll, it would seem) is very keen on the idea of innate gender identity. Does this not reveal something about the 'woman trapped in a man's body' narrative? It fits very nicely with good old fashioned misogyny.

SandorClegane · 12/03/2015 09:28

If I was on the same side of this debate as misogynist trolls I might be questioning my assumptions somewhat.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 12/03/2015 09:31

There are brutal trolls on both sides of any argument, Sandor.

ApplesinmyPocket · 12/03/2015 09:43

To answer the OP: the thing that unsettles me most about the glib 'transwomen ARE women' is it's so often used as an 'unanswerable' putdown for genuine concerns:

"I'm uneasy about transwomen in sensitive places like rape crisis centres" -"Transwomen ARE women. Why wouldn't they be there?"

"Is it quite fair that the list of highest-achieving women in industry and sport is dominated at the top by transwomen, doesn't this mean it looks as if women get a fairer deal in life/opportunities than they actually do?"
"Transwomen ARE women??!! you should be glad they're doing so well for women's achievements."

"Violence carried out by transwomen is counted as 'women's violence', doesn't this mean the figures get skewed so it looks as if women carry out more violence than they actually do?"
"Transwomen ARE women, why aren't you getting this?"

It gets even more ludicrous at times with people trying tactfully not to offend - specifying 'women born women' - only to get - "Transwomen WERE born women, they have always been women!"

The other thing which irritates me is the trotting out, often by people who haven't even thought about the issue, of 'but he/she was born in the wrong body' - this has been accepted now as a phrase that makes complete sense and actually means something, as if it's an accepted medical/biological reality. Another unanswerable put-down really. But it's a nonsense. We're all born into OUR body - or rather, our body is born. I suppose it got so slickly adopted because to say more truthfully 'he/she feels their mind doesn't match their physical body' might prompt people to actually think about the issues instead of blind acceptance. But you see it everywhere, like fact.

As others have said, I wish gendered expectations could be entirely done away with so everyone could live exactly as they wished. This it seems to me would make the life of people who feel they don't fit so very much easier. But in general the whole concept of trans seems to be coming at it from the wrong angle and INSISTING we are all pushed into a gender box.

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