I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

[nikkinack]

Sorry for another thread on the topic, but I was looking at my local candidates and the only female candidate is for the Green party, and she has retweeted that phrase (with the addition "Transmen are men) a couple of times today.

It seems like doublethink to me, every time I try to unpick the statement I get all messed up in the process.

So, if transwomen are women, why call them transwomen? Surely just by defining them as transwomen you are saying they are different to women? Transwomen can't insist on women using the label cis and then lay claim to the standalone word 'woman'.

So transwomen are women, ciswomen are women. The word woman applies to people of either category, but they are still separate categories within the single word, which we can't describe. We are not the same, but to state 'Transwomen are women' is to insist that we are.

I don't know how anyone who makes this statement can square all of this. It hurts my head just trying to work out what they mean.

My issue (and I am not even reading Marys posts so not responding there) is not about toilets
I wouldn't give a toss who is in the next locked cubicle
I would have issues with competitive sports though where a person born male could likely have a stronger body and gain an unfair advantage
I would be horrified that anyone with a penis were allowed in a womens refuge or gain entry to women only colleges
And school changing rooms, it is not good enough to don a skirt and expect to share a changing room with teen girls
I also would be worried about claiming crime rates are rising amongst women if it is transwomen committing the crime

I have discussed these issues amongst my friends/colleagues. I would describe us as typically proper working class professional women
I do not identify as a feminist but do believe in equality
All the women I spoke to are horrified and think it is a world gone mad situation
Some just do not believe it

One of the things that seems glaringly obvious to me is that the whole reason women's bathrooms are seen as safer is because they 'guard' against male presence (males by far being the major perpetrators of violence).

Women and vulnerable small children seek out that relative safety. I can completely understand why transwomen would want to benefit from it too.

However, the space is only safe because it is free from male presence and policed that way. If transwomen must be allowed to enter without challenge, then in reality any male at all can enter without challenge.

So any predatory NON-TRANS man with sinister or sexual motives now has a free pass. Many non-trans men have already been arrested for going to extreme lengths to plant cameras in women's bathrooms, or physically spy on the occupants, or yes... rape them.

If all of those non-trans predatory men now have the ability to put on some lipstick and walk right into the bathroom with everyone too fearful to challenge him (because he might identify as a woman), than the woman's bathroom is no longer a safe space at all... for anybody.

I think the way the wind is blowing is illustrated by the response to the Planet Fitness incident:

Person named "Carlotta" - who from the evidence of his own social media self-identifies as male, hence me using "he" - uses gym's women's changing rooms when visiting as a guest. He goes into the women's changing rooms to hang up a coat and a bag - ie he isn't changing, so there is no question here of him needing a safe space that isn't the men's changing rooms while presenting as female. A woman challenges his presence (he presents as stereotypically male, and is by all accounts a big guy) and she is thrown out for raising it, as Planet Fitness is a "non-judgemental" venue. Cue a thousand tweets praising Planet Fitness for their "trans-friendly" policies and for standing up for a "trans woman". The fact that "Carlotta" self-identifies as male does not seem to affect this praise for Planet Fitness (despite the fact that all these social justice warriors are thus misgendering him, something they usually view as a violent crime), nor does the fact that (again, from the evidence of his own social media) "Carlotta" sends unsolicited sexual messages to women online - ie there is docimented evidence of him not having respect for women's sexual boundaries.

Meanwhile, those evil, evil TERFs mention that Planet Fitness has thrown a pregnant woman out for accidentally showing her belly, and a hijabi woman out for wearing a headscarf. (I hadn't heard of either of these things until someone linked me to the evidence, so thank you, whoever it was.) The response from social justice media? ~tumbleweeds~

The message to men here is: do what you like. There is no safe space for women. Women are always, always in the wrong.

That is a good point, KiD, that the space may become more unsafe for all.

I'll be honest, something bothers me about being "othered" if having to use a trans* toilet...

Why does no one give half a shit how "othered" i feel as a apparently sexless disabled person? Half the time i dont even get a mirror

Really good point beyond - and surely the population of disabled people is much bigger than the trans population - and yet disabled people are excluded from mainstream debate

But surely the idea of 'being born in the wrong body' is illogical anyway, when you are talking to the 'my penis is female' section of transactivists? If it was the wrong body, they your penis is wrong?

For what it's worth, I think there's a lot of transphobia on this thread, but I don't agree with any of mary's posts either. She (if she is a she) has such a negative view of women that she doesn't even sound like a feminist. It's not worth engaging with arguments that are completely bonkers.

I still find the fear of transwomen sad though. As a woman and a feminist, I can say that I would not feel threatened in the slightest by sharing a toilet with a transwoman. Even a transwoman with a penis. Do people REALLY think that transwomen are likely to run round raping other women in toilets? Really? Surely the issue is a symbolic one rather than an issue of women's literal safety. And it's a huge leap of logic to say, 'Once we've let the transwomen in, we've let ALL the owners of penises in!' Like it or not, there is a pretty big difference between men who identify themselves as men, and men who have felt so unhappy with the gender assigned to them at birth that they have chosen to transition.

What I see on this thread is an 'othering' of transwomen - they are scary, they might even have penises, and above all they are not like 'us'.

If someone says she's a woman, I'm going to take her word for it. I'm not interested in doing a detailed analysis of her genitalia or her brain make-up in order to see whether she passes the True Woman test. I have better things to do with my time, like fighting the patriarchy. If she wants to join me in that, I'll grab her hand.

Also, with all due respect to gowether, I also don't think that hierarchies of oppression (arguing about which group is more oppressed) are useful at all. Recognising the vulnerability of transwomen does not mean minimising the ways in which women as a sex have been and continue to be victimised by patriarchy.

Regarding women's toilets being considered more suitable to use for children.

I have used women's toilets for my small boys for several reasons. One, I can go in there to help them out if they have any trouble with doing up their trousers, wiping their bottom or washing their hands.

Two, they are unlikely to encounter anyone's genitals due to doors on cubicles and no urinals.

Three, women's toilets smell better.

The main thing is though, I can go in there with them. I don't particularly think they will be at risk of assault if they go into a men's toilet. But sending them into any environment I myself am unfamiliar with seems a little counterintuitive to me.

If I were their Dad I would probably send them into the men's as I could go with them into there. Carefully steering them away from the urinal part...

there is a pretty big difference between men who identify themselves as men, and men who have felt so unhappy with the gender assigned to them at birth that they have chosen to transition.

The trouble is, while I am happy to concede there is a massive difference in what is going on inside the individual's head, there is no obvious/visible distinction to the outside world at all. A non-op transwoman (the majority are non-op) is quite literally not going to look any different from a non-trans male who dons a skirt/makeup in order to gain access for sinister reasons.

Non-trans men already do this regularly btw, but they usually get reported and/or arrested. If all they have to do is say they identify as a woman, women's bathrooms are no longer a protected space, from anybody or for anybody.

And no, the physical safety issue is not just symbolic. Transwomen themselves are also afraid of being amongst males in a public bathroom for good reasons.

Just a sample of why it isn't symbolic. There would be more links here, but I can't stomach all the "hot porn" results that come back when you google rape/assault in bathrooms.

If women are not allowed to challenge people who appear male in a women's bathroom, then any non-trans male can easily gain access, and will, seeing as they already go to great lengths to try.

TRIGGER WARNING - all reports of various arrests of men trying or successfully gaining access for sinister reasons, many dressing as women in order to do so. Some of the details could be triggering.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

For what it's worth, I think there's a lot of transphobia on this thread

marfisa what here would you say has been transphobic?

"Do people REALLY think that transwomen are likely to run round raping other women in toilets?"

Is this unintentional? Or are people willfully misinterpreting the concern?

I've not seen anyone say specifically that they are afraid they will be raped by a real trans person. The whole point is that once anyone can stick a dress on and go into 'female spaces'. They dont have to actually be trans, they could just be some rapist/murderer bloke in a dress, making the most of an opportunity

Marfisa, I don't think the main issue is transwomen who identify full-time as women raping women in toilets - certainly not the ones I know who have dysmorphia and may be on hormones in any case.
For me, it's the fact that the accommodations expected from women are so broad they will make it impossible to prevent those men who have sexual perversions involving watching women in toilets, from doing so. You won't be able to challenge them in case they are trans (because you will be the one who gets thrown out/barred) and if a man with no other history of being trans is caught in the women's toilets all he will have to do is say he identifies as a woman. Suppose he's not dressed as a woman and doesn't live as a woman - not relevant, because this is about self-reported internal identification.

It's very naive to think these men don't exist - they're easy enough to find on the internet.

I had a very horrible experience once where a man spied on me in a unisex changing room, and this kind of thing is very very common and will become even more so in the absence of female-only toilets (ie if women's toilets means anyone can use them who is willing to say when challenged they identify as a woman).

There has to be an accommodation reached that works for both sides, rather than us having to go to the most extreme position that will put women at risk.

Marfisa, you are one of the few posters on this thread who is fine with the phrase 'Transwomen are women', so please could you have a go at my question from way back - Can you define the word woman, in a way that includes transwomen, but that doesn't use the word woman in the definition?

I've not seen anyone say specifically that they are afraid they will be raped by a real trans* person.

No, true, but the thing is, as someone pointed out, trans women commit crime at the same rate as men, not as women. And there are enough documented instances of trans women committing rapes to make the fear of assault from either men or trans women a reasonable one. Do I think every trans woman is a rapist? Obviously not. Do I think all men are rapists? Obviously not. Most trans women just want a quiet life, like the rest of us. But being trans doesn't make you magically immune from committing assault.

And of course there's a lot of dispute as to who counts as a trans woman. If I was required to share intimate, enclosed space with "Carlotta", with his physique much stronger than mine, and his documented lack of respect for women's sexual boundaries, yes I would be frightened of assault. But I know trans women who are really quite angry that someone like "Carlotta" - who identifies as male, and who does not live as a woman in any meaningful sense - is apparently counted as trans.

The whole point is that once anyone can stick a dress on and go into 'female spaces'.

The thing is, they don't even have to go to that much trouble - identifying as a woman no longer requires you to have any outward indication that you do.

I think there's this general perception from people who aren't heavily embroiled in the trans/radfem debate that all trans women pass perfectly, have had surgery and are basically indistinguishable from cis women. This is reinforced by those trans women in the public eye - Paris Lees, Janet Mock, Laverne Cox - who pass perfectly and are very attractive.

It takes a fair bit of research to realise that this image doesn't actually represent all trans women - marfisa, have you seen the pictures that have been going round the internet of Carlotta Sklodowska (the Planet Fitness person)? If he (he does actually identify as he) said he was a woman, would you really take his word for it?

metro.co.uk/2015/03/08/woman-has-gym-membership-cancelled-after-complaining-about-transgender-woman-in-locker-room-5094097/

(Bearing in mind his creepy sexually explicit Facebook comments btw)

You don't need to look at his genitalia to know he's a bloke. Is he really "like us"? Because this is who we could be sharing bathrooms/prisons/dv shelters with.

We're "othering" people like Sklodowska to the extent that we're saying that they're men and men are "other" from women. Is that so unreasonable?

www.unionleader.com/article/20150312/NEWS03/150319651

Of course, one interesting thing about MTF trans people is that they seem to get a "free pass" for the kinds of pasts and behaviors that actual women would be made non-entities for.

Could you imagine a biological woman with the kind of mental health history this MTF person has getting elected to public office anywhere? Yet people are supposed to conveniently dismiss any mental health problems of a trans person.

transgenderreality.com/2015/03/09/being-a-girl-is-like-playing-on-easy-mode-jealousy-of-women/

Many of these trans people truly believe WOMEN are the privileged sex, and that being a girl is much, much easier than being a boy. They seem, like Mary above, to have been educated badly in history and believe that women have sat around eating bonbons while the men have done the work of creating civilization. Many of them envy women, are consumed by jealous and angry thoughts when they see women.

And I'm supposed to be okay with these folks in the changing room? People who say they can be "triggered" by the very appearance of a female body, or who can fly into jealous rages or major depressive episodes when a woman has a body they wish they had? Christ, I think every woman alive has probably had a moment of "I wish I had her body" from time to time, but this all-consuming jealousy and obsession is limited to males who choose to transition to a female appearance.

I don't think women are being irrational when they say they're freaked out by MTF people. Many MTF people hold opinions about women that are utterly horrifying and UTTERLY male.