The greens and prostitutes

[IceBeing]

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

The base of that statement is true though, forget the stated location for a minute.
There have been discussions throughout this thread that domestic violence, low view of women and increased child prostitution is prevalent in any area where prostitution is legal. There is a direct link there, i'm not sure I understand your argument.

pand0raslunchb0x, if prostitution were legal throughout the UK and I were to say Wales has the highest rate of domestic violence (apologies to Wales and the Welsh, I have no idea if it does or not, but I know for certain one country must have the highest rate of domestic violence in the UK), then I suggested it had that problem because of legalised prostitution.... can you see the flaw in that logic?

If legalised prostitution and domestic violence are linked somehow can you post better links than the one I saw, I would like to go read them and will look back in the thread for others... but its big thread and I may miss the links.

Prostitution and abuse goes hand in hand. That was the point of that statement by the previous poster.
I've literally just read an article about Sheffield police ignoring reports from hundreds of girls - it was published today:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31852118

Here is a PDF detailing myths and facts about legal and illegal prostitution:

www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdfs/Myths%20&%20Facts%20Legal%20&%20Illegal%20Prostitution%203-09.pdf

MYTH : Legal prostitution protects women in prostitution.
FACT: All prostitution harms those in it. Legal prostitution does not protect women in prostitution from harm. It’s not the legal status of prostitution that causes the harm, it’s the prostitution itself. The longer she is in prostitution – legal or illegal - the more she is psychologically harmed and physically endangered. Women who sell sex report high levels of physical and sexual violence, including verbal abuse, threats and intimidation - one UK study found that 63% of women in street and indoor prostitution had experienced violence.

Selling access to her body parts and faking pleasure has a very negative psychological and emotional impact on women. A study of prostituted women from nine countries found that two thirds met criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder which how profoundly stressful prostitution was for them. In two studies of186 victims of commercial sexual exploitation, women consistently indicated that prostitution establishments did little to protect them, regardless of whether the establishments were legal or illegal. One woman said, “The only time they protect anyone is to protect the customers.”

Prostitution is about not having a range of educational and job options to choose from. Most women in prostitution end up there only because other options are not available.
They do not have stable housing, they urgently need money to support children or pay for school, and they often have limited or no education. Prostitution is not labour, it is paid sexual exploitation. It is often paid rape. It is intrinsically harmful and traumatic.

As a society, we do not allow the sale and purchase of body parts, such as kidneys. This is because we know that it would be the poor and disadvantaged who would exercise their ‘choice’ to sell body parts for cash. Why should we assume that anyone really chooses to rent out her sexual organs.

DadWasHere aside from the facts and figures, the link between dv and prostitution also makes logical sense.

Buying sex reinforces the misogyny of johns - they are vindicated in their belief that women's bodies are objects to be used at their pleasure, they are able to act out their fantasies on women who are forced to comply... why wouldn't they bring those lessons home? Given that most johns are married or have girlfriends, how would they be able to separate the sex they have with prostitutes (in which they have all the control since they're paying) and the unpaid sex they have at home? Inevitably the desire for dominance will increase and increase and their wives and girlfriends will suffer for it.

That's another prostitution myth - that it acts as a safety valve. In fact the opposite is true.

Think of the Stanford Prison Experiment - perfectly ordinary men assigned to the role of prison guards, expected to be dominating and cruel, and these nice guys became so comfortable in their sadistic roles that the experiment had to be called off because it was getting too dangerous. Ordinary men are capable of doing horrible things when they're in a social context that permits and rewards those behaviours. Prostitution does just that.

Those are all very valid points rosie

I am not pro or anti prostitution per se, I favour whatever best empowers women and the choices they make, so what I feel about prostitution flows from that. I could as easily support full legalisation or full criminalisation or the nordic model, depending. I am open to have my mind swayed to any feminist view in the spectrum as long as its grounded in reality. That said there is such a huge gulf over it, between legitimising what is portrayed as a morally valid choice that can be empowering and harms no one else in society on one end to what is said to amount to slavery, desperation, depravity, delusions of agency and damage to wider society on the other.

DadWasHere, when you say 'grounded in reality' do you mean 'has research to back it up'? Because statistical evidence of potential impact of new laws is incredibly difficult to get, and almost impossible to rely on.

If we can't rely on research we need to consider logical arguments. For me, there are two main concerns - would legalisation make life better for prostitutes, and would legalisation negatively impact society?

The links provided earlier in the thread about the situation in Germany make me pretty sure legalisation wouldn't make for a happy life for prostitutes.

What about society? My biggest concern is about consent. Many people don't understand consent. (I certainly didn't properly until I started really thinking about it 6 months ago.) The idea that consent can be bought muddies the waters too much for my liking.

There are a lot of great feminist current articles on this IMO - feministcurrent.com/tag/prostitution/

I reckon you'll support the nordic model by the time you get through all those!

Dadishere:
You have a fairly balanced view but you do sit on the fence. if you are pro - woman then you would see that prostitutes ARE slaves to the system because they have no other options. Its not choice for most. There should be more access to education and legitimate jobs, freedom from abusive pimps and partners. The ONLY reason they are all in it is for money.

The knock on effect ripple of abuse from misogynists towards other women, in forms of domestic violence, abuse or oppression is prevalent across the world.

Ah yes. Allegedly pro feminist men need more studies and research into the suffering of women in order to be able to decide how suffery that suffering is, before they can possibly commit to anything which might reduce that suffering. The women suffering while those terribly important studies are done? Well, they can rest happy knowing they've added to the sum of human knowledge.

IIRC there's a thread about men like this. They're not coming out of it smelling pretty.

To be fair to Dadwashere, who seems to display a pro view towards women, he is weighing up views and looking for answers in order to arrive at his own conclusions.
However, i'd like to add that prostitution is not and never will be the empowerment of women. Sexual freedom, social equality, access to education and choices of career paths ARE the factors of empowerment to women.

Dadwashere's active interest in this issue contributes towards raising awareness, researching facts, figures and statistics that are brushed under the carpet of society.

I say let's have MORE open discussions and debates on the subject if we are going to bring about positive change.

I have one more link for you to consider:
www.infographicsarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/legal-regulated-prostitution-infographic.jpg

My personal conclusion from all of this is to focus on providing education, freedom of choice for careers and more focus on social equality.
There will only be significant changes if there is no longer oppression stemmed from the power and money hungry greed by the few at the top of the economic pyramid scheme system.

Investment in humanity and celebration of our consciousness as human beings will collectively and ultimately be our biggest achievement.

@Buffy
I completely agree with you that the current 'reality' may be 'perceived' as male centric and capitalistic etc but 'reality' also varies based on each individual personal views.

We have different concepts of what reality is and we have evolved consciously and live in different times to our anscestors. We now have more active influence on our environment AS individuals through various mediums.
People are waking up to the illusions of oppresion that has so long hindered and harmed us, directly or indirectly.

I take the view and always remember the quote: "No-one has the power to make you feel inferior without your consent"
Your body is a vessel as such, but you can have complete control over your mind if you given the right tools for positive thought. The conclusion of a 'perfect answer' is for each individual to decide.

If we take for example that even when you you are incarcerated for 27 years, as Nelson Mandela was, to emerge from that situation and still be the same balanced, unaffected person as you were when you went inside, to show that you will stand your ground no matter what others may try to do to your body, it serves the conclusion that there is hope and can influence others to adapt to this way of thinking.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that I think exploring solutions is the way forward, rather than just analysing the problems :)

yes you can. I suffer from endless distractions too, we all do.

Can I recommend this book: Focus by Daniel Goleman

www.amazon.com/Focus-The-Hidden-Driver-Excellence/dp/0062114867

it's helped me move forward definitely.

My post wasn't actually aimed at DWH alone... although I can see how you made that mistake. It was aimed at all the men who feel that it's ok to 'understand' that things cause great harm to women, but until we have empirical truth are unwilling to act, or even commit to a course of action which will reduce the harm.

I also find the quote "No-one has the power to make you feel inferior without your consent" to be bloody offensive. However, that's probably down to my training and having worked with and for people who have very little control over their minds, and for whom positive thought, simply wouldn't work, and people who have been so badly damaged by people who have done everything they can to make them feel inferior... suggesting that people have given their consent to that is really low.

However, this is a derail, and not helpful.

The weakness I see in DWH's argument is "it harms no one at one of the spectrum" point. As far as I'm concerned it always causes harm.

Puffins
I'm not opposed to your views, but generalising and effectively antagonising men who are of fair view is not conducive to discussions like these. We're all weighing up facts of legal and illegal prostitution here. The initial post was asking what is wrong from the legal perspective...

The quote is not offensive nor did I intend it to be, you've taken it out of context. There are people out there that are caught in the trap of the system, with money at the core of it, there are many women that are oppressed or mentally affected but there are also Positive people like yourself and people I know in the LD, care sector and drug rehabilitation and counselling services that are a support network for those who need it that can and do bring about change in society, more focus should be placed on these areas.

The perfect answer is of course if you don't like a situation, take yourself out of the equation or obtain support in doing so. If it is a personal decision for women like kim to rent their sexual organs for money then that's fine, as long as its discreet, no-one else profits from it and help is available if she needs it. What i'm saying is that if money is at the core of this issue and other options are available then they may choose a different path. This adds to the sum of human knowledge, no?

No-one can make anyone feel inferior, I stand firmly by that notion and if you are attempting to achieve that here, in contradictory terms, i'm afraid it doesn't wash with me. I'm not looking to derail the thread, but perhaps encourage a wider view.

I think Kim said she is educated and this isn't her only available choice for work, but one that earns a lot for little 'effort' if that is the right way to explain it (not sure quite how she phrased it) and she hasn't got any issues with that. We did touch briefly on the wider impact of her job on society - namely that she is aware of the men having partners and that there was a sense it 'let down the sisterhood'. To be fair we are all aware this is possibly the most money women can make per hour, and to the girls starting out it must be the main attraction. However what few of those women realise is the mental effect (PTSD etc) that even one encounter can have, let alone multiple, which in turn could lead to depression/drug abuse. The fact it is the riskiest job in the world isn't taken into account by these girls (or if it is they think they won't be in it long enough to be affected) but they may end up with affected mental stability as a result of even one john. At the minimum, as Kim explained, most of them would never want a relationship as they simply cannot see men as faithful. The impact of one john might do this, as I said, and to say that the girls should know fully what to expect and what the true cost is to them is not particularly realistic, IMO.

When I say girls starting out, I am talking of those who do this by choice, not trafficked or coerced girls, although they obviously suffer the same effects without having the choice.

No-one can make anyone feel inferior, I stand firmly by that notion and if you are attempting to achieve that here, in contradictory terms, i'm afraid it doesn't wash with me. I'm not looking to derail the thread, but perhaps encourage a wider view.

Nice try, but no, I wasn't attempting to make you or anyone else feel inferior, I leave that to abusers. Unless that's what you're accusing me of? I do hope not.

I am very happy for you that your life experiences have lead you to believe that everyone has lived your charmed existence. Most haven't, some have lived lives of utter hell. Those people did not choose to feel inferior. They have had their inferiority imprinted on them, often from birth, by the people who should have cared for them, and by a society which tells them again and again that they don't count. Suggesting that these people have in some way consented to their abuse is pretty abhorrent.

Often those people will turn to drugs or alcohol to self medicate the pain away. Sometimes those drugs or alcohol will kill them. A good amount of the time women, or rather very young girls will be prostituted by others, thus reinforcing their view that they are inferior, lesser, deserving of the abuse, and so the spiral continues.

One way to break this is to ensure that society does care about children in abusive situations, but, given revelations from Rotherham and others, this doesn't seem to be the case. Another is to ensure there are people like me about, who will help people rebuild their lives, and try to piece together their tattered self esteem, sometimes for the first time in their lives. A third would be to go down the Nordic Model route, where women who wish to exit are supported to do so, where the stigma attached to prostituted women is slowly being lessened and the stigma being transferred to those who should be carrying it, the men who use these women.

Kim is an unusual case within prostitution. Very unusual. The vast majority of women have little choice, not just financially, but also because they have been brought up to believe they are less than nothing. A view which is constantly reinforced by a society that does care and men who happily take advantage of them.

Not really sure why you're picking my posts apart puffins, you've just reitterated my points which incidently seem aligned with the Nordic model.

I've not lived a 'charmed' life, however my experiences have shaped me as a person. I think we are all capable of adapting to change and I try to maintain a positive mindset.

Otherwise, we've basically established we're on the same page.

Your message to those you support and rehabilitate would no doubt be positive and self esteem building. Hopefully with guidance towards education / opportunities, promotion of the value of self, encouragement to draw a line under the past and move forward knowing it is a basic human right to not feel inferior, be submissive or taken advantage of by anyone.

Glad we cleared this up, good evening to you.