The greens and prostitutes

[IceBeing]

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

Or this.

Here's an "economic migrant"

An endless queue of 'nice gentlemen' eh?

I think it was in my first post on this thread that I said that I wasn't impressed by what I saw of the German brothels on the Mega Brothel program recently aired on Channel 4. I then went on to say that I would be perfectly happy if the only prostitutes were those who operated as I do, although I personally have known women who wish to work in UK brothels for various reasons that I consider valid.

There are many arguments going on, here. One is whether or not sex should ever be bought or sold. Another is if it can possibly be bought or sold in an ethical way. Still others are debating whether or not some prostitution can be OK while other prostitution is not OK. And many of us are debating the root causes of why there is exploitative prostitution in which the women do not have autonomy and control over what they do.

I can, without anyone's assistance, find endless examples of bad, exploitative and abusive prostitution. I have never claimed that it does not exist.

However, I maintain that what I do is does not entail abuse and so the problem does not lie intrinsically within selling sex, but rather with underlying issues of addiction, poverty, or other factors by which someone may be generally vulnerable.

All of those arguments are valid arguments against prostitution. Ethical public policy is based on the vulnerable, not the strong. So I wouldn't hesitate to cut off your commercial opportunities to prevent what you describe as "endless examples of bad, exploitative and abusive prostitution". That shouldn't be a problem for you since you have other choices, right?

For what it's worth, when I say that I was "not impressed" I mean to say that what I see in Germany reinforces my long-held belief that legalised prostitution does indeed engender more of the worst sort of prostitution and abuse. As I said in an earlier post a couple of days ago, I do believe traffickers will move goods to whichever market they think will be easiest to sell them in. I would not be happy with such legislation in the UK and that is even without my personal interests (i.e., concerns about increased competition) being involved.

I am not going to stop working as a prostitute, personally. I have worked under full criminalisation and things went on pretty much as they do now. My only interest in joining this discussion is to hear what other people are thinking, examine my own thoughts on things, and to air my own opinions, particularly when I am annoyed to see both sides fling around or dismiss spurious statistics, choosing those that support the opinions they already hold. It is hard to hear people say things that describe me as a victim or whatever, and I think I have pretty well made a case against that for myself, personally. However, I can't actually speak for the women who are NOT happy in prostitution because I haven't really met women who are literally forced to sell sex.

I would have nothing to gain, financially, by legalisation. If anything, I would probably benefit more from full criminalisation as I am privileged enough to work discretely.

Good grief Buffy, that link sealed the deal for me.

I no longer think making prostitution legal could possibly be worth the short term cost, even if it did produce long term improvements.

We have to address societal attitudes that lead to using prostitutes appearing to be a valid choice.

Thanks Kim,

Wow, such an enlightening an honest view from Kim, it has reinforced my view even more so that prostitution should not be decriminalised, i've been to Amsterdam and shudder to think what it would be like with dancers in windows, sex shows, porn and coffee shops with cannabis on every corner. Those are the two policies I strongly conflict with the green party.

However they represent a great left view in other issues and balance out Farages madness on the right. The fact the Greens now have more members than UKIP proves they should not be seen as a joke....

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/green-party/11453904/The-Green-Party-is-no-longer-a-joke.html

@Florafox
Those articles are shocking, the one about the 'pussy club' in stuttgart that advertised discount on the opening weekend and 1700 men took advantage of it, with queues of men down the street complaining about unsatisfactory service as after a few hours as the women were not fit for purpose.

wtf did I just read - do I really live in a world such as this? I'm truly speechless and angry to the core after reading that.

The 'pussy club' in stuttgart story sounds quite harrowing, I thought Germany was quite pro workers rights etc though guess that doesn't extend to the sex trade industry.

Say in the UK would punters bizarrely then push for some sort of Of-Com government agency to register complaints of bad service.

I'm on my face talking to a man who wants to vote green and has been trying to convince me they would licence better than Germany and put all tax back into the industry to help those harmed. I'm off out but will post more later as he has cited green policy (which I've condemned as too vague)

Facebook not face!

"The sex industry in the UK is thought to be worth about £10 billion in the year 2009. Decide how you want to tax it, and that tells you the fraction of that money you'd have for enforcement, safety, trafficking-investigation task forces etc. That's assuming, as I said before, that you earmark all of the money raised to go back into helping the people who are harmed.

...That's a hell of a lot of money - no wonder Germany doesn't want to talk about changing it!"

" The "love hotel" problem can be solved with better legislation, for example by making the owner personally liable if people are selling sex in their establishment (and by actually enforcing the rules).

If trafficked women are able to safely report their situation, in the knowledge that their families at home aren't in danger, then you won't need to find them - they'll find you. The former part can easily be done by setting certain conditions to licensing (e.g. every woman is required to have regular, private, confidential contact with a social worker). The latter part would involve a large amount of international cooperation, but difficult doesn't mean impossible. Step one is getting everyone to admit that there is a huge problem, and that something needs doing about it other than "well we've banned it all, what more do you want?".

Regarding your assumed increase in the number of prostitutes, numbers can be part of license controls, which means the numbers won't necessarily go up. Again, this relies on good licensing terms, and strict enforcement, which are both absent in your examples."

" I agree, they could be more detailed, but:

RR555 The Green Party recognises that, although people should be free to engage in sex work if they wish, this is an industry which can be more exploitative than others, and those who work in it should be adequately protected against such exploitation. There should be zero tolerance of coercion, violence, or sexual abuse (including child abuse). Those who have been trafficked into the country and forced to work in the sex industry against their will should receive protection under the law (see MG450-454). There should be legal support for sex workers who want to sue those who exploit their labour unfairly, and access to re-training for those sex workers who want to leave the industry. As far as possible, public services, the Government and legal system should aim to end those social attitudes which stigmatise those who are, or have been, sex workers.

RR557 The use of commercial premises as brothels should be legalised, and such brothels should be subject to licensing by local authorities to ensure protection of those working there and clients from abuse, and protection of the local community from nuisance and abuse. Some prostitutes choose to work from home, or similarly in residential premises, like some other trades. Such use of primarily residential premises should be permitted without a licence being required, subject to the avoidance of nuisance and abuse. This exemption from licensing requirements should still apply if more than one person works in such premises, provided that such activities take place on a sufficiently small scale that they are not tantamount to a commercial brothel.

The lack of regulation of German brothels, due to poor legislation is one of the key problems with its policy, and one which is specifically addressed in the second policy statement above."

it's all a bit pie in the sky and I've said it's a money pit that could tie the greens up for years but more likely they will move on to the next thing on the agenda after making a half arsed attempt. As I said I'm off out but thought I'd pick your brains again!

Nope facebook dude, no deal. Maybe link him to this? www.genderberg.com/phpNuke/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=2&categories=Prostitution+FAQ

He seems well meaning, but not very well informed.

Particularly this -

"All attempts to lessen the harms of prostitution have failed because men have not lessened their debasement of female sexuality and propensity to commit gendered violence in any significant way. There are plenty of medical records, police records and personal testimonies to substantiate men's violence towards females in places where prostitution has been legalized. Where prostitution thrives the value of women's lives is low and the gendered violence they suffer has not decreased. In fact, the legalized province of Victoria, Australia has both the country’s highest domestic violence rates and child prostitution rates."

Wow, this has taken some catching up with.

I think I have rights against prostitution under liberal politics because men's desires for prostitution are themselves prejudiced. Every man who regards any woman as available for his consumption in this way degrades my claim to full personhood, irrespective of the harm or otherwise to the prostitute from whom he procures sex.

Which is not to say that I'm unconcerned about the actual harms to actual women that such transactions may involve. I just want to point out that there is an established, libitarean argument to the neolib position about the rights of individuals to conduct economic activity in this way.

I think we do as a culture need to address the idea that men can realise their masculine identity through sex.

I find the social interaction argument quite interesting but would say that having sex is more like making friends with someone than it is like giving a pedicure so regard it as a bizarre activity to conduct through financial rather than interpersonal structures.

And I think that the only way that I could tolerate any kind of legalisation is that if prostitution were fully subject to the equalities act. EG, no punter at a licensed centre could insist on having a male or female partner 'totally focused on their pleasure' (I mean, if that is all it's about then there's no problem, right?). And no brothel could keep only women. And male job seekers were required to apply for jobs at brothels. Full equality, yes?

Well I certainly don't want what happens in Germany to be brought to the UK. It is positively medieval, I am really not predisposed towards violence but I wanted to give that owner of the super brothel a slap. Especially at his reaction of horror to the question would he mind his daughters doing it.

I think we can define that particular setup as a failure, if for no other reason men seem to have ended up running it.

Thanks rosie Funnily enough now another guy who lives in Amsterdam has just posted this "Living near legalized prostitution I would have to agree with the greens. Criminalizing it does not make it go away. The problems the Dutch have with it are down to the moral right making it difficult to pass legislation, leading the windows to be owned by any number of scumbags, Girls here are monitored and protected at the very least. How many Rippers(Jack, Yorkshire, Suffolk) do we need to have before we realize that criminalizing makes the whole thing even more dangerous and making victims out of very vulnerable people?"
So I have answered both of them with this:
I don't want to criminalise it, but I think full legalisation is very dangerous and have cited Germany as a nearer example to why trafficking would increase and as an example of how much policing/legislation/money and social aid it would need. People are calling legalisation the New Zealand model, but NZ has far less of a problem with trafficking due to their global position and that they are not in the EU as well as having better immigration rules. I do completely understand street walkers are unsafe and that if we could somehow stop men wanting them to walk on the streets then they wouldn't do it. None of these problems are starting with the women, who on the whole want to be safe.

My second point is that men are not going to get better at seeing women as equals if it is legalised - it doesn't send a message that violence against women is wrong, it perpetuates the idea we are objects and the power balance is skewed from the off. Moving forward as a society that values equality, this seems very counter productive. That is where the problem lies and the more education and outreach workers we can get to help men understand this the better.

www.genderberg.com/phpNuke/modules.php?name=FAQ...
"All attempts to lessen the harms of prostitution have failed because men have not lessened their debasement of female sexuality and propensity to commit gendered violence in any significant way. There are plenty of medical records, police records and personal testimonies to substantiate men's violence towards females in places where prostitution has been legalized. Where prostitution thrives the value of women's lives is low and the gendered violence they suffer has not decreased. In fact, the legalized province of Victoria, Australia has both the country’s highest domestic violence rates and child prostitution rates."

It's nonsensical to tackle violence against women by simply making violence against women not a crime.