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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

The greens and prostitutes

807 replies

IceBeing · 04/03/2015 21:21

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

OP posts:
Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 08:36

But if it were legalised and super brothels came?

rivetingrosie · 10/03/2015 09:22

I don't know how the taxing is done in Germany, would we interested to know though!

And the "it's going to happen anyway so why not regulate it?" argument falls down on two fronts IMO.

  1. will regulating actually improve the industry? Research seems to suggest not. Men who hate women enough to want to pay to violate them will continue to hate them with or without legal sanction - legal sanction will only increase the gross number of paid sexual exchanges, and so the gross amount of suffering for prostituted women.

  2. couldn't we use that argument for anything? Paedophilia is still going to happen whether or not it's criminalised...

Jackieharris · 10/03/2015 09:29

the black rider no they don't!

Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 09:34

I think it would be a huge PITA for HMRC as well as possibly leading to an increase of fees for the punters. If the pimp of a super brothel is going to have to report instances of violence in case the prostitute makes a claim then his insurance or whatever will be sky high - the cost will be passed on to the punters. Surely that is not an attractive proposition for the guys who want to buy women as cheaply as possible?
If they regulate it, surely a database would have to be put in place? Could this not lead to catching prolific sex attackers - much like casino's have finger prints and a picture of their gamblers on screen in a nationwide database?

Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 09:37

I quite like the idea of all of the men who use women in this way to be recorded. I do actually think that could cut sex crimes quite significantly and solve a fair few at the same time. Although agreeing to a DNA test on record would be better for the latter. I wonder how Amnesty feel about that as a human right for the worker the punter is possibly about to abuse?

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 10/03/2015 09:42

I do wonder how many people would still want to buy consent if it was accompanied with a booking system giving full name and address, a brief health questionnaire (as with beauty parlours), compulsory condoms and gloves where required etc...

PuffinsAreFictitious · 10/03/2015 09:42

Then, if it follows what's happened in Germany,

the women would be working self employed,
they would rent a room and pay a percentage of each 'client' to the owner to cover the 'introduction fee',
the prices they would be able to charge would go through the floor, because younger women would be bussed in from Eastern Europe who are willing or made to work for far less money and do a wider range of riskier things,
Gaps in women's work record because the stigma against prostituted women is still rife and putting time spent in sex work of any kind on your CV doesn't look good to employers mean that any other kinds of work is difficult to get
The money is worse, but now they are forced to pay for extra health checks and health insurance premiums are higher, because even insurance companies recognise the risks involved, even within brothels.

Yes, they can work legally in brothels, however, even within those brothels women are raped and beaten, because it is an inherently dangerous job to do. Because it's legal, there have been regular noises, not realised as yet, that jobs within brothels should be allowed to be included in job centres, and in Germany, if you refuse a job you're qualified for, you lose all benefits and, let's be frank, all women are qualified to be fucked for money.

Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 09:54

Ok, I haven't changed my mind on legalisation. I'm aware that it would cause prices to drop if trafficking isn't tackled.
However for argument's sake, say trafficking was tackled to a greater extent. Could there not be a set minimum fee for services and the prostitute can charge more but not less (she would then be breaking the law). I know that is an odd idea, putting a price on acts, but it is what they do already, so making a national 'minimum wage for acts' could possibly make trafficked girls more obvious (the tax man would not be able to tally hours and wages if they are undercharging for one, and rumours would be like wild fire highlighting these brothels to cops).
Just an idea. As I said I haven't thought much on the benefits of legalisation as I don't agree with it. If it happens I would want some form of benefit for women back - such as the database system, DNA records and a minimum wage.

Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 09:55

No it should never be allowed to go via jobcentre - ridiculous idea! Outraged at that. "Let's free up all of the real jobs for the men" ! pffft.

Original poster
IceBeing · 10/03/2015 09:55

Okay so we could certainly fix the problem of prostitution by eliminating money!

Okay - so not the most helpful thought...but there you have it.

OP posts:
Original poster
IceBeing · 10/03/2015 10:01

Can I just come out and say that I actually do not understand the reason that the majority of men who buy sex actually do so?

This is a genuine question....

Is it about desire for sex, or dominance? Is it about the no-strings?

Is it about societies image of male prowess?

Seriously why not just have a wank?

OP posts:
Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 10:06

I think it would be different for every man. However there is always going to be is a mix of power, dominance, illicitness and some who cannot form meaningful relationships who are more than likely shunned from women in real life because they are mentally disturbed. Also excessively old men, fat men, incontinent men - basically many men who most women wouldn't find attractive. I also think some men think of it like a memento - the equivalent of buying a trinket on holiday.

Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 10:07

No man who resorts to using prostitutes is likely to be a great catch, IMO. I know Kim thinks some of the ones she sees are nice/fit whatever, long term they are not going to be anyone I would want around myself of my children.

Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 10:12

IMO if they had any real qualities they could go out to a bar and chat up someone who wants to have sex with them. Enough women have no strings sex out there with few expectations. The fact they want to pay suggests either an inability to do this or a desire to dominate by being able to pay at the very least.

Original poster
IceBeing · 10/03/2015 10:16

okay - I am pretty sure I would struggle to pull now, in fact it is a mystery to my how I ever did even 15 years ago. I think if I was overwhelmed with horniness I would probably make a date with a large pack of batteries!

It is that women aren't classed as failures if they don't have much sex in the same way men are?

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AKnickerfulOfMenace · 10/03/2015 10:22

No, I don't think that's the case for the majority.

Many men having sex with prostitutes are in sexual relationships or could be. Just as many men who rape are in relationships. It's about power more often than desperation.

Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 10:26

I wouldn't think of it as being a failure, but in today's media it does seem to equate to being ugly/old/frigid or even a feminist!
The idea it is a personal choice baffles many people.
To me the idea of rising STD's and the porn culture men now have (IME they bang away at you like a screen door flapping in the wind) means I would also be happier using my imagination. A long forgotten art form if you ask me!

TheBlackRider · 10/03/2015 10:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
IceBeing · 10/03/2015 10:29

I think it would really help it women weren't so often portrayed in films and particularly in games as prizes to be won.

I mean what fraction of women are thinking along the lines of how many men they can bag, claim, chalk up etc.?

OP posts:
TheBlackRider · 10/03/2015 10:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BreakingDad77 · 10/03/2015 10:35

I agree that the prostitutes should not be prosecuted and that punters should be.

Though prostitution for me is part of the bad sex construct we have between men and women of buying sex, whether outright through prostitution or by proxy "the man should pay brigade".

This gives the societal impression in society that men expect to be able to buy sex and if a women doesn't give it to them he hasn't paid them enough (lavished gifts etc).

Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 10:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lioninthesun · 10/03/2015 10:48

I deviated from why I was thinking of him - the male side of the sex trade.
I know it isn't always comparable but do they also have male conferences on rent boys or whatever the up to date name is? I never hear much of that side of it and I was wondering if the figures are combined or just for female prostitutes?

rivetingrosie · 10/03/2015 10:50

On this topic of legalisation - the way I've heard it explained is this...

Trafficking is expensive for the traffickers. Yes, they eventually end up with the profits from a sex slave, but they have to put in a lot of initial capital. They have to send people out to the countries where the women/girls are trafficked from, spend time grooming them, or setting up dodgy business fronts or whatever, and then put money and effort into transporting them back. A certain proportion of the women will escape or be caught by law enforcement, and many of them will also end up unable to work because of illness or even death. And then there's always the risk of being caught and facing imprisonment and/or huge fines.

So why would pimps go to the trouble of trafficking women if there were enough women who wanted to do it voluntarily? This is just as true in somewhere like Germany where it's legal as here in the UK. It doesn't make business sense, and traffickers and pimps are very good businessmen. The fact that they continue to go to all the effort of trafficking reveals that there just aren't enough women who are prepared to go into prostitution without being coerced.

I've often heard advocates of the sex industry say that there are lots of shitty jobs etc., why should prostitution be any different? But while working in McDonalds might be a shitty job, McDonalds don't have to traffic people over from Eastern Europe to make up the numbers. Even criminal industries like drug dealing don't need to do that - there are no shortage of people who want to make money dealing drugs, even if it's dangerous and criminal. The sex industry is the only 'business' that paints itself as legitimate but can't persuade enough employees to work for them and so is forced to traffic the rest.

=> All the regulation in the world isn't going to make prostitution into a legitimate business, it will always be largely a criminal enterprise.

scallopsrgreat · 10/03/2015 10:53

yy rosie. Prostitution is a demand led industry, hence the trafficking. I think that is very important to understand when you are looking at ways of tackling the industry. Tackle the demand.