Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

[countessmarkyabitch]

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

There's a shitton of insightful critique of transactivists coming from inside the trans community but no one's listening cause transactivists bring the lulz.

/reality-check, gender-minefield, sometranslady, radfems are right...

In this new mainstreaming, transactivists leverage the low-disgust self-identification of public liberals to manipulate them into supporting obviously repellent individuals. It's the same psychological trick PUAs use (it's described quite well in the Gift of Fear). Anyway, the way it goes here is, as a progressive you support human rights unconditionally, in opposition to conservatives who only support them for righteous people. It's important to your self-conception to be open minded. So the most liberal person supports, for example, human rights in prison for pedorapists. (I certainly do!) It's totally easy to subvert that into a situation where people (to support their identity as a liberal/progressive) end up working hardest to support the trans woman who looks and acts the least like a woman, who most challenges their "wrongness" reflex, which they are ideologically committed to rejecting as a system of morality. In fact the crazier and more violent she acts and the uglier and more masculine she is, the more you support her.

It's (born)men demanding things of (born)women.

Again. As ever. Surprise.

That's what pisses me off.

MrsTawdry Owen is perfectly happy to praise, support and quote trans activists who attack lesbians for being "transphobic" for not wanting to have sex with people with penises. Some lesbians have come under a real barrage of abuse for saying that no, they will not contemplate sleeping with anyone who has a penis, whatever their identity.

Owen Jones is a hypocritical fucker if he thinks it's OK to ask women that, and to totally ignore the abuse his new comrades heap on lesbians, but terrible to ask him exactly the same question.

I think it's because Owen is new to it all. A lot of people think that way until they get deeper into it.

I just don't see what people's preferences have to do with anyone else at all! People are so varied...you can't neatly box us all off into catagories! And unless the sex is illegal or abusive it's fuck all to do with anyone what anyone else does!

So what if lesbians don't want sex with penis owners!? So what if trans men don't want sex with WHOEVER! It's private, varied and personal. There's no debate.

He could have had a bit of a think and a read round the subject before he did his article though

Has Owen Jones said what he thinks straight men should do if a trans woman wants to sleep with them?

Yes probably. He's a brilliant man...a YOUNG man though...I will always admire him.

x post. My "probably" was for Cow

There's no debate.

I completely agree with you, MrsTawdry but Owen Jones is actively supporting and promoting the people who have made it into a debate, while holding himself above it all. Hence: hypocritical fucker.

He could TheCow, my hopeful thought is that it was a knee jerk mea culpa response to his first hearing of the (soi disant) issue and he will have time to get his little self educated and then do a much bigger mea culpa.

I expect you're both right, hully and mrstawdry. The information is out there after all!

It's a complex subject and he really should do his research. I know very little but I know that I wouldn't be talking publicly about it.

Ally Fogg also had an attack of the vapours on twitter the other day when asked about having sex with a non-op transwoman. He then dismissed the lesbians telling them their experiences of being called bigots as "paranoid nonsense". This issue really makes it clear who listens to women's voices and who wants to talk over women. And men wonder why women don't want them involved in feminism.

So many hypocritical fuckers.

Jesus, Flora, I've just looked at Fogg's TL. What a fucking tool he is. Women say "violence of type x happens to lesbians" and he replies - without drawing breath to enquire about evidence - that they are talking "paranoid nonsense". That's made me so angry.

Annie I'd love to be shocked by that interaction. It does make me think of Germaine Greer's quote that women have no idea how much men hate them. Or Ally Fogg could just be an individual fucking tool. Or both.

The person in the video was being cheered because it was a rally of people who think the same way.

Justin killian has gone one step further and can't even be arsed to go to the trouble of putting a dress on before he declares himself a woman

There's a few of them like that.

This is a long read but quite comprehensive on the background to this issue:

www.weeklystandard.com/articles/transgender-triumph_859614.html?page=3

I can't watch Justin without thinking of this: