Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

[countessmarkyabitch]

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

it just looks like the same old stuff men deciding what happens to women

yes, I agree. I think this is why I find it so upsetting.

I'm curious to hear from anyone who believe a transwoman is a woman, what the definition of "woman" is.

I am trying to work out why I am so very angry about this, and why it's occupying so much of my headspace, and it guess it's because I feel duped, lied to and taken advantage of.

I have fought for trans rights, the very rights that are now being used to silence women and encroach on women only space, and I am angry about it. I feel like I have aided and abetted the enemy.

Yes, this, Hermione. For my whole life I've regarded trans people as political siblings under the LGBT banner, and I feel totally used, and stabbed in the back. As a woman, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by this.

Analogy with race is really interesting

I agree, the race analogy puts it into perspective, or it should.

The clothes analogy that cigars used was quite offensive - the implication that womanhood is just like wearing a suit of clothes that can be changed.

I will never accept people born with male genitalia as women, because they are not women and never can be women. They can live however they choose, it is none of my concern if make up and dresses is their thing (it isn't mine). But they are not women.

Usually, when people suffer from delusions, it means they need psychiatric help, not that everyone else should pander to their delusions.

The fuck does trans abled mean?

Able-bodied people who think that deep down they are disabled, Ehric. Appropriative bastards who think they should have all the glorious "advantages" of being disabled. Presumably without the chronic pain, but who the fuck knows. I bet (using the trans model) there are some who are "ablefluid" or some such bollocks, "shifting" between being abled and disabled.

I see. And instead of challenging these delusions via appropriate therapy does the NHS provide amputations in order that people can present as disabled to the world?

There was a surgeon in Newcastle who performed amputations
I watched a documentary a few years ago following people
He had people travel from other countries where they wouldn't perform the surgery
IIRC there was a public outcry and surgery was halted

I sort of remember that. The people involved, I think IIRC, felt a lot better after they had had the surgery?

There was one woman that he / someone else wouldn't do as she wanted double amputation of her legs completely. I think the gist was amputation up to the knee is not so limiting so OK, over the knee is more drastic, but both legs fully removed was just too far even for someone who was sympathetic to the feelings of the people.

It was years ago though so that may not be 100%. May even have been a different prog to your one stillwearing.

I have been a bit amused by the squirrel comparisons in the other thread 'cause a lot of transactivist tactics (twitterstorm used to be called dogpiling back in the day) and rhetoric is straight out of Fursecution!2004. It's so so weird to see these Proper Grownups With Names people in the mainstream/mundane internet crashing into SJWs and fandom wankers, and (understandably) not understanding the byzantine connections between this behaviour and shipwars, 4chan, memers, b/tards and their repressed fursonas...the whole crazy ass lot of them have a mode of engagement that is tribal and hostile in the extreme and which above all conceptualises the self as a story you are telling in that moment, which, like a comicbook, can be retconned or recast or totally rebooted at any moment and in any context (you can have multiple contexts). The only rule is that you are the creative God of your self story, the arbiter of all truth, and so to have your self story contradicted by someone is the ultimate violence, like destroying the universe. (Basically it's the Neverending Story.)

Right, exactly. Other people are just words on a screen. The important thing is to make the words support your narrative.

I sort of understand that. It makes sense.

But some people want these things in real life. At which point it's not word on a screen is it. So then what?

Do you sort of mean that when people say they want words changed they aren't sort of considering the impact on other people, or that's just not relevant, or they don't care, or the other people aren't real, or what?

Thinking of something like FGM, getting it changed to GM, which then encompasses male circumcision as well and dilutes the efforts of people wanting to help the group formerly known as girls. Is that just, collateral damage? Irrelevant? They are over there so they don't matter?

I don't really understand.

It's that other people aren't really as real as you are. They are extras or audience or mirrors. Of course you can't completely rid yourself of the suspicion that you are the extra, so you must continually assert your identity or else you will cease to exist. This is the violence of erasure, which can only be fought with representation.

Blimey.

So what you're saying is they need to get out more

That makes sense, zlipt, with all the assertions that words hurt them, but their actions never hurt anyone else, however violent and extreme they are, and whatever they do. Because if they are always the heroes in their own stories, then they are always, always the character that matters most.

Well, it's no accident Second Life is so popular with transfolk (who are clearly no longer driving this train imo).

Transfolk sometimes identify some of these connections in a no true scotsman kind of way, but more mainstream transfolk (or anyfolk) don;t fully understand how amazingly toxic and mad people like this can be and how they can weaponise and subvert your community and end up being persuaded into the more alluring self deceptions. Cause the thing is they can tell good stories.

Interesting link, I've been having fun reading all about gender tests and their take on them. Thanks

Owen Jones is outside the National Gallery today with a megaphone, speaking in support of striking workers. Am severely tempted to turn up with a placard and twenty friends to tell him and everyone else present how "transphobic" he is to get so offended by being asked whether he would ever be willing to have sex with a trans man. Because cunnilingus with a trans man's male vagina is obviously different than cunnilingus on a woman (ew! disgusting! don't you know he's gay!), and he's clearly a horrible, horrible bigot to be so hung up on the contents of people's underwear. See how long his liberal values last then.

Bonus points, obviously, as his National Gallery appearance has nothing to do with trans issues.

Annie Owen Jones supports the trans community. Maybe he doesn't want to answer questions about his personal sex life.

his article about supporting the trans community