Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

[countessmarkyabitch]

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

I don't think anyone here is saying that gender is binary. We are saying it is a social construct that harms women, men, and trans people alike. How have you not got that from the last twenty pages?

Ok. As long as there is an acknowledgement that this is a small group. The acceptance of the blatant fact that this is a minority has been pointedly lacking in this discussion.

I would like to first state that I am not talking about rape crisis centres or domestic abuse shelters. In spaces where women may have extremely negative connotations of a penis, that boundary should be protected in my opinion.

But to exclude trans women from feminist spaces just because they have/have had a penis is unnecessary. As long as trans feminists accept (which the majority do) that discussions on menstruation, vaginal rape, etc. are for women who were born as women only, why exclude them totally? Why can they not have a voice when it comes to discussion on sexism, harrassment, the exclusion of women from positions of power, equal pay, etc?

And the focus on trans women's genitalia is just furthering the policing of women's bodies by others. Their genitalia should be their own business, not a matter for intrusive public questioning. Trans men are not subjected to the same humiliating scrutiny, which should surely further prove that this obsession with trans women's genitals stems from sexism and the objectification of women's bodies?

"I would like to first state that I am not talking about rape crisis centres or domestic abuse shelters. In spaces where women may have extremely negative connotations of a penis, that boundary should be protected in my opinion.

But to exclude trans women from feminist spaces just because they have/have had a penis is unnecessary. As long as trans feminists accept (which the majority do) that discussions on menstruation, vaginal rape, etc. are for women who were born as women only, why exclude them totally? Why can they not have a voice when it comes to discussion on sexism, harrassment, the exclusion of women from positions of power, equal pay, etc?

And the focus on trans women's genitalia is just furthering the policing of women's bodies by others. Their genitalia should be their own business, not a matter for intrusive public questioning. Trans men are not subjected to the same humiliating scrutiny, which should surely further prove that this obsession with trans women's genitals stems from sexism and the objectification of women's bodies?"

The vocal trans minority are saying that they do want access to rape crisis centres and domestic abuse shelters. There have already been cases of "transgender" male-bodied people getting into shelters and assaulting women, because the law has allowed them to do that. So this is no a hypothetical thing.

No one has mentioned anything about excluding trans people from feminist spaces. Trans people do not accept that discussions of menstruation etc are for born women - they have had events cancelled in order to prevent women from talking about these things, on the basis that it is "trans-exclusionary."

We are not living in some fluffy world where trans people want to get along with us, cigar. We're not being nasty to lovely people who just want a nice chat about tights.

Get a clue.

Cigar - if you say that transwomen are women then you say that they have access to all safe spaces designated for women, including shelters, rape crisis etc. You understand that don't you?

Cigars I know I can't speak for anyone else, but it seems to be that most people are not saying gender is binary, but that sex is (albeit intersex also exists so perhaps not a binary exactly).

Sex is a neutral, no judgement-laden fact - it is what it is. Gender is thrust upon most people at birth and is assosicated with certain behaviours, characteristics, and restrictions. A lot of feminists believe that gender is purely a social construct.

(apologies if this feels like I'm explaining it to a 5 year old - I'm trying to get it straight in my head).

With regards to trans* issues and feminism, what I've got my head around is:

• all people are equal and are afforded human rights (because, obviously)
• some trans* people feel physical revulsion at their physical sexual characteristics and so change that medically. I can see the logic in this, in that if a major part of what you are identifying with is the physical characteristics, then changing those would alleviate some of the mismatch (sorry if that's not sensitively phrased, I can't think how else to put it).

Where it doesn't fit together for me is that a large proportion of the trans* community doesn't undertake to physically match their self-identified gender. What I am confused about is that if they are fine with their physicality, why they identiy as a woman. As I feminist, I think that gender is a social construct so there are no inherent attributes, qualities, interests, dispositions etc for either men or women, apart from 2 things: their physical sex, and the fact that their physical sex would have influenced most of the behaviour and expectations from the people around them, meaning that both boys and girls, men and women were constrained, restricted and policed, although women experience this hugely disportionately more given that they make up the majority of the population.

So I can't fit my ideas that gender is forced upon us rather than innate with the idea that we have "male or female brains" or that we have an inner "essential gender". If we're all just people who come in an infinite kaleidoscope of patterns and constellations then how can someone feel "like a man" or "like a woman"? Surely you can only feel what you are feeling, and not know how anyone else would feel? I'm really uncomfortable with this as I don't want to erase anyone's experience - I would genuinely love to know as something I just don't know.

Excuse me, I have read the whole thread and there have been people saying that trans women should be excluded from all feminist spaces. And many vocal feminists have stated the same - and tried to exclude trans women from feminist events as a whole. Not just the parts of it that pertained only to women born women. The whole thing. And I think it's reasonable to protest that as exclusionary.

It is a minority. You state that once, and then lump all trans people in together. "Trans people do not accept..." "Trans people want to..." Yes, a minority is extreme and unreasonable and threatening. But to lump every trans person in with them is offensive and not conducive to a reasoned discussion.

So your solution is to deny all trans people their gender identity? And by saying "trans gender" in quotation marks, that is what you are doing. I would never call you a "woman" or a "feminist" because that would be highly offensive and dismissive to you and your experiences.

There will always be people who take advantage of a situation. Women and trans women alike. This would be punishing the majority so severely for the acts of a very small number.

In no situation can everyone be placated and safe. Some sort of compromise needs to be sought.

Whoops, that took so long to type out I x-posted

I said "transgender" because that man simply used being "transgender" as an excuse to rape women.

To clarify, that man wasn't transgender, he was a rapist who used laws designed for transgender people in order to gain access to a shelter.

To clarify cigar, is it your position that transwomen should be seen as women except when it comes to rape crisis centres, shelters etc?

Your view of the world is not the only one that matters

Nor is theirs, cigars. My view counts too. My identity counts too. I entirely reject the label "cis". If I don't believe transwomen are the same as biological women that is my right. If they want to consider themselves women, that's their right too, but you can't force people to accept them as such. They are legally accepted as women. This does not mean that they actually are women. They are transwomen. I would happily campaign for them to be accepted as such and to be free from discrimination. But not for people with penises to be admitted to female safe spaces or for their issues to be prioritised over the vast majority of women's so that issues which concern them is all we are allowed to talk about in feminist spaces.

Cailin if it wasn't an actual transgendered person, then why the revulsion towards trans women being given equal protection from men?

There will always be people who abuse the system. There is no getting away from that.

venus I accept that. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I'm just arguing that it is denying their life experiences to suggest that they are just men playing at dresses and frills, and denying their identity to state so categorically that they are not women. In your opinion, they are not. In my opinion, they are. In their opinion, they are.

You can campaign for trans issues and intersectionality within feminism without campaigning for trans issues to be all that is discussed. The extreme trans activists who do campaign for that are not intersectional and their opinions oppose many other trans activists who believe that trans feminism is a part of feminism, not the defining feature.

Again, this obsession with penises. Can we stop policing and invading trans women's bodies please? If they present as female and live as female and their penis is not intruding in your life or in anyone else's life, what is its relevance here?

There will always be people who abuse the system. There is no getting away from that.

It's nice that you so blithely dismiss this. Which was directly caused by legally having to admit people with penises into a female safe space.

"There will always be people who abuse the system. There is no getting away from that"

So we are supposed to just accept that women can have no safe spaces, even when escaping domestic violence or rape?

"Again, this obsession with penises. Can we stop policing and invading trans women's bodies please? If they present as female and live as female and their penis is not intruding in your life or in anyone else's life, what is its relevance here?"

Penises are mentioned because we're not allowed to say "man" so it's to distinguish people who have vaginas from people who have penises.

How does someone present as female?

" Can we stop policing and invading trans women's bodies please? "

Seriously?

This is one of the major features of being a woman isn't it? Having your body policed, commented on by strangers, being told it's wrong, that bits of it aren't right, maybe you should have some surgery, having all sorts of invasive medical procedures, and people keeping from you what the consequences of various procedures can be, and what you can and can't do with your body and when.

Welcome to the "team".

And of course the very real possibility of people (male generally) actually invading it with a pinch, slap, grope, fondle, finger, tongue, or cock.

So what's new? This is life isn't it. Women's bodies aren't their own, never have been.

I also reject the label "cis".

There is already a name for an adult human being born with female genitalia: that word is "woman". And that is what I am. Not a ciswoman.

I agree with venus. Our opinions count too, our views are valid. And my vew is that people born with male genitalia are not women, no matter how many dresses they wear, how much surgery they have. They may choose to live as what they perceive to be a woman, but it does not make them women.

I have had experiences which I do not wish to describe in detail that would make me extremely reluctant to make use of rape crisis centres or other such spaces that were not exclusively open to women. I strongly resent their intrusion on my safety, their intrusion on discussions of womanhood that I might otherwise have been able to have with fellow women.

I accept that's what it sounds like I'm advocating but it's not - I just can't see how to reconcile gender is a social construct with gender is an essential, innate thing. It sounds like they are two diametrically opposing views so whilst I support individual trans* people to live as they wish, the underlying philosophies seem at loggerheads.

I have just noticed this in cigarsofthepharaoh's post above:

"Can we stop policing and invading trans women's bodies please? If they present as female and live as female"

What does that even mean, present as female and live as female?

How does one present as female?

Presenting is a commonly used term in the queer and trans community. It does not mean frilly dresses and make up, before anyone assumes that. It just means that they are presenting themselves to the world as female - when they go to the shops, they go there as a woman, trying to look like a woman.

Some lesbians present butch. Some present femme. Some don't present as either. It isn't about stereotypes, it's about how you present yourself to the world.

In the same way that you might go to work dressed up nicely, or go to the park in a tracksuit.

Yes, but how does one "look like a woman" cigars?

So confirming to the prevailing accepted norms of appearance for a male or female person.

conforming. not confirming

Yes, women's bodies are policed and invaded. That was my point. Why are we, as women, as feminists, imposing this on anyone else? Why are we taking what oppresses us and using it to do the same to another group of people?

I didn't meant that we should just accept that people abuse spaces. But it is unfair to punish every trans woman for the actions of a man who takes advantage of their struggle. Trans women who suffer violence and abuse at the hands of men are in a very similar situation to many abused women. But we exclude them due to the actions of a few violent and abusive men who take advantage of the acceptance of vulnerable trans women into these shelters.

How does a someone "look like a woman" cigars?