Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

[countessmarkyabitch]

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

I'm curious if you have much interest/background in feminism Hubert? Because this is what feminism is all about - looking at gender roles, how they're assigned, why they're similar across the world, what they mean for both sexes etc. There's a massive wealth of reading out there on the topic.

Pilchard yes he does use the gents, which now has (as well as the ladies) a poster on the door, informing all students that there may be transpeople and people who don't identify as any cisgender (if that's the right term, I find it quite confusing sometimes) using the toilets, and to respect their right to use the toilets as they respect yours.

The reason I worded it the way I did was more a grammar error, I said "I totally support his rights to use the toilets and services he feels most comfortable in, and the same goes for any transperson" - what I meant is, I support the right of any transperson to use the toilets they feel most comfortable in, such as in his case, where he feels more comfortable using the gents. Sorry for the confusion :)

I don't feel it's right to say it's fine for transmen to use men's or women's facilities, but it's not right for a transwoman to use a women's toilets. I can understand the arguments against, but it doesn't sit right with me, something in it feels unfair - probably because, as the saying goes, NAMALT. I really don't know my feelings on this matter.

Ok, you feel as threatened by women as by men, Hubert, fair enough. But in terms of policy and legislation it makes more sense to look at the overall picture, which is that men attack women. That's why women aren't keen on men being able to get into their safe spaces.

Well you'd need to ask men how they feel about transmen using their facilities I think, really.

Thank you for that post Breaking. I agree.

Again, I will say that IMO the toilets thing is a total non-issue because toilets are effectively open to anyone. If a man is dressed as a woman then it's very unlikely anyone's going to say anything to him unless he is actually causing a scene or assaulting someone, so it's not really a big deal.

The issue is with other spaces like shelters, rape crisis centres, prisons, where women are very vulnerable and open to abuse.

cailindana I'm by no means an academic expert.
I am a feminist myself (I have a vagina and wish to be the boss of it and all that).
My dissertation was about feminism and gender issues.
I encounter issues of gender and feminism in my work, from a creative and cultural point of view.
I employ a large team of people so have engaged with trans and gender issues in the workplace and made decisions regarding gender toilets etc

So no I'm not an expert but am an interested party. I've not suggested to be any sort of important voice on the subject but I find it interesting and have very much enjoyed discussing it.

Well the issue of gender is fundamental to feminism. It's what it's all about really.

You are born into a certain sex. There's nothing you can do about it. What matters is how the world treats you based on that sex. Currently it strictly divides people into male and female and gives them very specific roles based on that.

Feminism sees that as unnecessary and damaging.

Transpeople see it differently - they see the roles we're assigned as fixed and that if you want to be one or the other you have to transition. It's not enough to be a man who wears "feminine" clothes, you have to actually be a woman.

I'm not sure whether this has been cleared up upthread, but are you distinguishing pre and post op transwomen?
The 'penis in the changing room' post has made me wonder. Would it be accepting for a trans woman who has a vagina and has been on a course of hormone therapy to be in a shelter/ rape crisis centre etc? Because they are no void of their 'manness'? (manness, weird word)

Interestingly, you see the roles as "arbitrary," as in, open to change. Transpeople wouldn't agree with you. They see it that they have a certain sex but a different gender and those two things are fixed, such that they must change the appearance of their sex (through hormones and surgery) to fit with the gender they feel they are.

I am so glad we can have this discussion with a range of viewpoints without anyone threatening or harming each other, far nicer than Twitter at the moment.

"Currently it strictly divides people into male and female and gives them very specific roles based on that.

Feminism sees that as unnecessary and damaging."

That's exactly right, it's damaging.
Hopefully in the future people will be free of those constraints and you can act however you want and be treated in the way you wish regardless of what genitals you have.
But that time is not now. So for some people the only way to receive the treatment/lifestyle/existence that they desire is to switch roles.
(Why anyone would choose to be a woman is beyond me but that's not for me to decide).

Would it be better for the feminist cause for these people to refuse to define themselves to a sex/ gender that they don't belong to right now and do things their own way? Of course. But at the end of the day we're all human and want to enjoy the little time we have, and I just can't get in the way of that. It doesn't seem fair.

I understand your point about not guaranteeing someone's safety over the safety of another, but I cannot assign someone into the category of being a threat purely because they were born with a penis. It goes against all my instincts.

The pre- and post- op thing is rather a small consideration given how few people actually go through with the surgery. In purely practical terms, a post-op transwoman is less of a threat, given that their penis is gone. However, the claim of a post op transwoman to be a woman is still invalid IMO.

Fair enough Hubert. That's your choice.

One thing I would say is that it might be eye-opening for you to engage a little with what transactivists actually say. Because it won't come across as "accept me," believe me.

"calling it Female Genital Mutilation is cis-sexist"

Yeah that is piss boiling.

Hubert, that is a taster of the entire rhetoric. Women aren't allowed to talk about pregnancy or menstruation, they're not allowed to have women-only spaces, they basically can't do anything that isn't approved by transwomen. It's not a case of acceptance it's a case of transwomen wanting to entirely redefine what women are, based on their own experiences and needs.

I fully accept that my views may be changed upon engaging with trans activists. As it stands, I've only met lovely and level headed trans people.
Then again, I don't change my views on Christianity based on what the Westbro Baptist Church are up to.

Oh and if women say "fuck off" then the result is death threats, glitter bombing, protests of feminist events resulting in cancellation, etc etc.
All very nice stuff.

It's just male privilege and misogyny under a different guise.

It would be very interesting I think for you to engage with one of those trans people and ask them what they thinking feeling like the other gender actually means.

Because I've asked trans people that (here and in real life) and the answers are...confusing.

cailindana in what circumstance have you been prohibited from talking about pregnancy or masturbation?
I don't see those topics being censored in any media, film, games, art, books, on the internet, or anything.
I acknowledge that some trans women may be bleating about how they want it to be, but it's not actually happening is it? And it won't happen.

I lived with a trans person all the way through their transition. I didn't understand everything all the time, but everything was positive.
I employ trans people. Same applies.

Part of my job is producing events. And I'm not talking small conferences, our last one had over 70,000 visitors.
During the last one it was picketed by a minority subset of a culture. We had bomb threats, our speakers had their information leaked online, we had to put some of our speakers into a secret location etc. (there were not glitter bombs).
But that will absolutely not effect my view of that culture as a whole. No way.
I don't understand why the outspoken trans activists are effecting your view of trans women?

Yes, it is happening Hubert. The gender recognition act allows a person with no change in genitalia to gain recognition as the opposite sex and to get a new birth certificate to that effect.

Thus, born men can gain access to women's spaces.

It is a present issue.

There have been documented cases, like the one I mentioned earlier in Canada of sexual predators claiming to be transgender in order to gain access to shelters etc and attack women.

There have been vocal protests (I still can't bloody link, but google brings it up pretty easily) by transwomen against women being able to say "pregnant women" on the basis that it's "transphobic." One has to say "pregnant people" apparently, thus erasing the fact that it is women who have to face unwanted pregnancy and abortion, not men.

Search feminists unknown and transphobia for a very good discussion on this.

Because the non-outspoken ones are simply not speaking up at all.

Regardless of that, I think the whole idea of being "trans" needs more discussion. I object to anyone who is brought up as a man claiming to be a woman simply due to wearing a skirt or taking hormones.