Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

[countessmarkyabitch]

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

I really dislike the idea that women and girls who have been victimised / have strongly digested the conditioning around this, that they must chuck it all off and "not be scared of men" as it's unfair to men.

If men don't want some women and girls to be scared / wary of them, then they need to work to reduce the incidence of activities that have provoked that response in the first place.

'Gender is taught to children' is the very definition of arbitrary.

I've never suggested anyone think the same way I do. I just answered your questions about how I feel as honestly as I could.

When I was beaten up by a woman I wasn't marvelling at how small a statistic I would become.
Maths went out the window in that particular moment.

Hubert, if someone said "something's killing women in their thousands," what would your first question be?

The fact that gender is taught to children does not make it arbitrary Hubert, because the teaching is done very specifically based on specific genitalia.

But I am getting the impression you're just going to counter everything I say and not actually engage with me.

But masculine and feminine are highly restrictive "boxes" that act to constrain us all.

Get rid of them, is what I want.

At the moment if I take an online "gender" quiz, or the BBC "what sex is your brain", I'm a man. That's silly though isn't it. I am a woman with a perfectly normal brain and life. It's the boxes that are wrong.

what is it? is there a cure?

Exactly "what is it? Is there a cure?"

The thing that's killing women in their thousands is male violence.

Unless we ask "what is it?" and give an honest answer we can't cure it.

By implying that male and female violence are equal you are ignoring the reality.

Gender is not arbitrary.

Babies identified as female are put in the "feminine" box with bows around their head and pretty little shoes.

Babies identified as male are put in the "masculine" box with dinosaurs and praise about how strong they are.

Many many many people do not fit into the boxes. Too many. Get rid of the boxes.

Am I not engaging with you? I'm taking on everything you say and answering as honestly as I can.
At this point I think we may have a different idea of what it means for something to be 'arbitrary'. Which is fine.
I don't think that not agreeing with everything you say means I'm not engaging.

I never implied that the violence committed by different sexes was equal. I said that my experiences have resulted in me fearing attack from both genders.
At no point have I said everyone should feel the same as me, again I've just been answering you questions honestly.

What I mean by not engaging is that you say something, I counter it and you redefine the terms.

The term "arbitrary" means "based on random choice or personal whim."

Gender is not arbitrary. If the word arbitrary doesn't fit what you mean then use a different word.

So you agree that men present a greater threat, overall, than women?

"We are a certain sex but we learn or perform certain gender roles which are not predetermined or tied rigidly to biological sex. Thus, sex is fixed and based in nature; gender is arbitrary, flexible, and based in culture. This usage helps to detach gender inequalities from any putative inherent or natural basis. The problem, however, is that this sex–gender discourse constructs a false dichotomy between biology and culture, which are in fact highly interdependent."

That is what I mean when I refer to gender being arbitrary. A social construct that is not biologically predetermined. I think the word is fitting but would happily use another one if it's more fitting.

How is not biologically predetermined? Are there millions of children with penises who are called girls?

Here is an example of a transactivist response to the suggestion that a feminist conference should have a woman only safe space. I was there. Gail Chester was attacked. This reponse is disgusting: afem2014.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/on-the-terfs-in-our-midst/

How is not biologically predetermined? Are there millions of children with penises who are called girls?

No because as a society the rule is that if it has a penis, you call it a boy, and encourage these attributes, put it in these colours, and give it one of these names (simplistic but you get the point).

It's only because we do this that it makes it so. That's what I mean by arbitrary.

So it is determined by society, based on genitalia.

So you mean how gender manifests in different cultures is arbitrary.

Not the fact that female children are pushed into the female gender role, and male children into the male one.

I would say there are a hell of a lot of similarities in how masculine and feminine are characterised across the world though.

Very good post by the way Breaking. I agree.

I'm curious to know Hubert if you agree with my statement that men, as a group, present a greater threat of violence than women?

ethelb that's an interesting article, I need to read it thoroughly.

Gender is determined by society, and then associated to a child based on its genitalia.
So maybe it's the decision of which gender is assigned to which genital that's arbitrary? (Or it was when it began. Now it's engrained into the rules of society)

There is a lot of similarity between gender roles and stereotypes across the world and it's interesting to think how that came to be.

Well no gender roles have grown out of the fact that women are the ones who have babies and men want to control whose babies they have, and when they have them. In a nutshell.

sorry cailindana i missed that upthread.
I agree that statistically a woman is more likely to be subject to violence at the hands of a man.
When faced with a woman and a man down a dark alley, my natural reaction is to be worried about both. Statistics mean nothing when that woman attacks me.