Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

[countessmarkyabitch]

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

Also, as a feminist, to say that "woman" is a meaningless category that can be appropriated by anyone attacks my beliefs in a very fundamental way. Of course I'm going to react, even if that person isn't a transactivist.

Abortion is a real issue.

In the US the idea that people (including men) give birth rather than women give birth is gaining traction, which suddenly means that anti-abortion people gain a lot of ground as what men think about abortion is exactly and equally important as what women think about it IYSWIM.

Someone may identify as a feminist, but if theyre actively hostile to other minority groups such as transwomen, then im afraid they dont speak for me AT ALL. I have much more in common with the transwomen I have met/known than I do with any of the vicious TERFS on these boards.

Public toilets should be unisex and monitored. The realm of human experience is massive and cannot be categorised as male or female anywhere near adequatly. There are far too many people who do not identify with such restrictive labels

Monitored? By who?

cailindana, your beliefs are attacked in a fundamental way, and so are mine, by yours (as a feminist)

by someone with a job, like toilet attendants that used to be commonplace and now arent.

Just to be clear I am not actively hostile to anyone. Plenty of transpeople are actively hostile to me though.

Who would pay for that, Bran?

the local council that pays for them to be cleaned etc.

Thats if people are worried that public toilets are unsafe spaces

Also, are you proposing to monitor every single toilet in the country or just specific ones?

Our local Nandos toilets are unisex and unattended without problem. It is possible.

As I've said in a few posts now, I don't think toilets are an issue at all. I actually think monitoring them is pointless.

My issue is with people with male genitalia gaining access to rape crisis centres, shelters and women's prisons.

Oh and also transactivists trying to dictate what women can talk about, and calling lesbians who don't want to have sex with someone who has a penis "bigots."

I can get on board with the rape crisis centre and DM shelter (if they still have a penis) but disagree about the prisons, mainly for their safety. Of course if the said prisoner has a history of abusing women then let's not eh, but if they are away for a non sexual crime and a psychologist/ other professional person deems them to be safe then I think a woman's prison is the best place for them.
But I only think it's OK if there are other/separate/specific shelters and centres that can accommodate them as women (ie away from men).

Just because a transactivist calls me a bigot for not sleeping with them, doesn't make it so. That's just someone making a lot of noise.
If the law were changed to say it were a crime to refuse to sleep with a trans person, I may consider this an issue, but as it stands it's just an extremist bleating into the wind.

That's fine Hubert, you don't feel the need to address it. I do.

I think that's fair Hubert.

Thing is Hubert, when you say "I'm fine with shelters but not with prisons," you do realise that the legislation makes no distinction? So if a transwoman is recognised as having the same rights as women then that applies to everything, not just prisons?

I agree with everything Cailin is saying, but only if it was said with the caveat of "a very small minority of transwomen".

There will always be the vocal extreme minority who say things that defy reason. Of course FGM is not cis-sexist. Of course lesbians shouldn't be guilt-tripped into having sex with anyone (and I say that as a lesbian with a trans* partner).

But for the reasonable, feminist majority of transwomen stating that these are their views is, I imagine, very insulting and incorrect.

I have already asked the question about a white person deciding they're in the wrong body and wanting to be black, Buddhist. I notice no one's answered it.

wow, just wow.

I never thought of myself as trans phobic - I have been a campaigner on trans rights as part of the LGBT movement for decades. I have personally supported people thru transition.

But if it is trans phobic to want to talk about women's biology, to think lesbians have a right to decide who they are attracted to, and to have reservations about male bodied trans women in women's safe space, then I will happily be called trans phobic.