That study about men expecting women to physically move out the way...

[WorkingBling]

... I thought it was an American thing. "In England, if nothing else, men have that naturally English chivalry thing going on" I thought.

Hahaha. I am 36 weeks pregnant. Bad back. Belly the size of a small whale. My ability to make quick direction changes is completely gone and frankly, even if I could turn sideways in an effort to make myself smaller, it would be a complete waste of time as clearly I'd actually double the space I take up.

And do you know what? I get bashed by a man at least twice a day on my way into and out of the City - today I had three bashes from grown men and one from a teenager where, even though the father was giving his three children a hard time for being a bit boisterous, he saw the teenager smack into me but said nothing about that to either one of us.

I've also had a few men staring me down as they approach, making it clear they expect me to move out of the way quickly. And when they do bash me, I don't even get that instinctive English apology where everyone says sorry.

The weirdest thing is that I bet some of these men would let me go first through a door or possibly give me a seat on the tube. But when walking on the pavement, I am expected to move. And move fast.

I can't believe I had never noticed it before.

This has been done to death. The Times did a study where they sent 6 different women out in 6 different studies and recorded who moved out of the way. They found slightly more men did.

6 different cities, that should read.

Oooh oooh ... if only there was some concrete scientificy type evidence to establish that male privilege in public space exists. You know like a man coming onto a thread in Feminism to explain that a well-established gendered phenomenon has nothing to do with gender.

So, asking questions is now 'explaining', is it? The 'well-established' bit is what we were trying to discuss. Or is discussion taboo? Some people seem to get rather uptight when anything is questioned, or any evidence to the contrary is presented.

Venus Rising said : “I've noticed that men don't get out of the way, but I don't think it's personal, I think they are mono tasking on walking and don't seem to notice anything else. Perhaps they are chewing gum at the same time, which probably completely overloads their circuits. Bless.”

Is that not the most sexist comment made on this thread so far?

AICM

Did you not know that us men are totally incapable of multi tasking? I get told this by women all the time, either by those I know or random women in shops etc.

VenusRising is quite correct. If I'm chewing gum whilst walking I have a far higher chance of walking into all sorts of things, women, lampposts, rubbish bins...... In fact, that proves categorically that this isn't a sexist phenomena at all [epiphany]

I definitely agree it's not consciously sexist - it's not like they are thinking "I am an important male person, everyone inferior must move"

But, there is a general and totally unconscious expectation for men that they have the right to take up space, whereas there's an unconscious understanding for women that we have to get out of the way and unless we specifically go out of our way to get in people's way, we don't notice it. Just like OP didn't notice until she was suddenly less able. It doesn't just happen with walking, but in lots of situations. If you people watch and make a tally, men are more likely to be confident that the space around them is "theirs" whereas women are much more likely to make subtle movements out of the way.

It is a tiny tiny thing and not a conscious one at all, it comes from observing others in our society when we are young and we don't even realise that we are doing it. It's like the jarring thing when you visit a country where they drive on the opposite side of the road and when you try to pass somebody on a narrow path you automatically step to the left but they automatically step to the right. Nobody ever told you to step to the left, but that is what you do. It's not even noticeable until it doesn't work.

Did you see the article about the woman who decided to sit legs-apart on the tube for a set period of time? At first she felt really uncomfortable and rude and as time went on she didn't even notice when she was inconveniencing people.

I don't think it has "meaning". Or that it's anything particularly important or worth challenging (Although Buffy's realisation about older people or people with limited mobility is true, and worth noticing) but it's interesting - don't you think? It shows how deeply we internalise sex differences. When we are very small we use these categories, not other categories, to emulate and learn how we are supposed to behave, not as humans, but as a person of our own sex and ethnicity.

Obviously you can't do an experiment like this, but if a boy was brought up in a totally female environment, only ever witnessed women going about their daily business and didn't meet a man until he was grown up, I expect he would develop what we would think of as quite feminine mannerisms.

DS has developed a lot of DH's mannerisms, which we often think of as genetic, but he is not his biological child. We learn a lot from copying what we see from others, even unconsciously - I can't copy an eyebrow movement deliberately if I try, so how do we pick these things up? I find it really fascinating.

Agree with you Bertie Botts. No-one is saying 'all men deliberately intimidate women on the street' (although plenty do...however) - it's about the millions of messages that they get that they are entitled to that space.

Here's one example, DH taught DS aged 3 to pee in side streets, if he needed to go. I can't imagine ever teaching a daughter that it's OK for her to pee in public. That message - that your comfort and convenience - comes above hygiene and courtesy to others is pretty powerful.

I lived in London for years but never noticed this. I always walk assertively and confidently so perhaps that's why? I'm not saying that to insinuate those of you this had happened to are walking along like timid mice, just thought it was relevant. Perhaps I was one of those dicks who barged into people. Hope not! I always moved for anyone who needed me to though.

Still discussing an imaginary phenomenon ....

Except Larry, it's not imaginary. I walk the streets of London all the time and do not usually bump into people. Suddenly I am constantly being bumped into. That suggests that my inability to manoeuvre is the main problem. Which suggests that usually I get out of others' way rather than other people getting out of mine.

Acknowledging male privilege and ingrained sense that they have the right to the space doesn't mean that all women are perfectly polite or that every man is the same. It's an overall thing.

Similarly, while now and again I sit next to a woman on a train taking up more than her fair share of space, without a doubt it is usually men who sit with legs apart of who make no effort to constrict themselves. Doesn't mean they are sexist, nor does it mean all men are like this, but the phenomenen demonstrates that as a rule, men have more instinctive belief in the right to space.

Of course it's imaginary. There was an article in the Times a man read once. That comprehensive study of 6 women. Or 6 cities. Or something.

I mean, that's the final nail in the coffin, that is.

One actual study is a lot better than your subjective experiences where you are bringing your biases to bear. It is a well known psychological phenomenon known as confirmation bias.

A man might have read the article but it was written by a woman and all the researchers were female. Of course if you can point to research (as opposed to subjective opinions) I am happy to be corrected.

So all our experiences mean jack shit because of some study. Ok mate.

No I don't think that is what Larry is saying but in the same vein, people are happy to dismiss other experiences where women do exactly what men are being accused of.

So do male experiences of shitty women count for jack shit too?

It was women's experiences that made someone do a study. But if the study failed to confirm the experiences, it at least warrants more study. If repeated studies fail to confirm subjective experience, then I am afraid that you have to consider the experience to have been flawed, probably due to bias.

Fugg
What about all the experiences of women who say it isn't happening? Do they count for jack shit too?

It is a well known psychological phenomenon known as confirmation bias.

Yeah, other examples include reading a 'study' in a newspaper that confirms your prejudices and dismissing all other evidence.

Did anyone actually link to this study?

I'm really new to this sight but I'm already starting find that some women seem to be bitter and twisted to point where they've become massively sexist; the very think they claim to be fighting against.

It makes me so sad as I was hoping to find a new avenue for my feminist thoughts and a place where I could learn more and grow as a feminist. But reading this thread, and going back over many, many previous ones, I realise I'm not like and I don't intend to hang around long enough to become like you.

I won't post here again; what's the point?

Read it in paper edition. Will try to find link but may be behind paywall.

Thanks Larry. It wasn't this one was it?

www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Society/article1508338.ece?shareToken=2b44b8ec162fd4d30e671201031a0d14

Wait until you have a pushchair. Then you'll realise it's not just men that expect you to move. I was struggling to get into the doctors before as the doors were so heavy and was just watched by men and women. I'm always aware of my surroundings and try to help other people, especially with children. People often watch while you struggle to open doors, get baby in trolley without it rolling away. Some people are just arseholes!