Feminist Pub 17: The Bluestocking frolics in the fells and fens of feminism

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

This is the 17th incarnation of the Feminist Pub!

Here be goats, cannons and chat on feminism and related themes. Also snacks. And booze, copious booze.

Welcome!

Sorry to do this here but can anyone see a wobbly heart: ??

Meh didn't work. As you were.

I've been sitting on a sofa most of the morning occasionally comforting poorly child while sitting through interminable programmes about various personality-endowed transportation methods and sneakily playing on here. There are worse ways to spend a morning. I'm not totally unempathetic to / with? poorly child, honest.

personality-endowed transportation methods

WTF? Is that a thing?

Poorly children don't want to be fussed over, do they, so your approach sounds about right. Hope yours recovers soon though.

Did it make sense? Principally Thomas tank engine and Ivor the engine with a bit of bob the builder. Ds doesn't get feminism yet. He likes bagpuss too if that makes it better.

They might not want to be fussed exactly but they won't let you out of their sight either. He is starting to pick up, well he was but have got him off to proper sleep now, thanks!

Personality-endowed transportation methods = Thomas the tank engine, chuggington etc, no?

xpost!

Ah... my DD is long past that stage, I'd forgotten. I thought maybe you were involved in something like the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.

DH just phoned me - he's picking up DD from the school bus, which stops a bit past where he parks. So he saw it go by, and was in a state of somewhat amused horror that it was adorned with a huge ad for 50 shades of grey. It's a girls' school bus too. 'Its not good, is it?', he says ,' normalising that'. He's getting there with the concept of objectification. DD lobbed 'stereotype threat' at him the other day too (she's doing an inter-school tech competition today, held in a nearby "boys' and girls' club" - except on the form it was just described as 'the boys club'.)

Have spoken and listened to a few parents talking about secondary schools and girls-only schools. Am a bit shocked enlightened. I must live in a different world.

Conversation with recruitment expert this week: "would you consider taking a role outside technology?". No, why would I? And I doubt very much you'd ever ask a man this question.

I was lectured by a recruitment consultant once for not being grateful that they were proposing a role for me that I felt was too junior. Also probably not something they would do to a man.

They're not asking me that, and I might.

At least, I don't think they are. The job spec I was sent last week is so vague and generic, I'm not sure what skills they're actually asking for. (I have asked for clarification. I've been put forward for jobs where I don't have the techy skills they want at all - some things I can blag, but where it's the main product which is a necessary skill, I think I actually do need to have at least used that product at least once.)

SoMuch, yes that too. They are surprised that after years of being tech/team leader I don't want to go back to "individual contributor".

I thought this was whinging about recruitment consultants talk.

I am fighting my own inclination to sell myself short right now on a couple of employment opportunities!

Good article here, tangentially related.

fortune.com/2015/03/03/female-company-president-im-sorry-to-all-the-mothers-i-used-to-work-with/

Can I tentatively join in?
Shortly to go back to work after being off with DD. Have had horrendous battle to get my part time hours adjusted to actually, you know, fit with picking up DCs from nursery (in my day... can't you get a babysitter...) and various other things that are very subtly discriminating (went to union on one of them relating to my previous leave with DS and senior union person said "well it could be seen as your choice to take leave..."). Lots of implication that my performance is inferior.

I'm going to be working part time in one of those jobs that never end i.e. if you go off sick/on leave nothing is actually done by anyone else, it just piles up for you when you return. And I know that, for example, I will be expected to attend 100% of team meetings, do 100% of reporting paperwork, meaning that actual productivity will be way less than my actual percentage of work.

It's also one of those jobs where one is expected to be helpful and welcoming to a specific section of the general public and where I have been pulled up on this before in feedback.. but which I think is related to the fact that I am not three times as helpful and welcoming as most of the men in my role, do not act as mother to this client group, and do not put myself out more than everyone else.. just, you know, about as much as everyone else, enough that it doesn't interfere with other aspects of my job.

OK sorry for the rant on my first post in this section!

The pub is for rants too!

Rant away. I'd be annoyed too, in your position. I'm not an employment law expert but I believe that some of that stuff goes beyond subtle discrimination into actual legal discrimination (my boss was very meticulous about such things when I was returning from mat leave)? Might be worthwhile arming yourself with a bit of ammunition in the form of your rights? And in terms of the greater contribution busy people make generally (I like the article linked above on this point) because they have to get things done efficiently.

That kind of anti-part time attitude irritates me. It's not as if all jobs magically perfectly suit a 40 hour week - that's just what we're used to. Part time can actually be very helpful for the employer if they think laterally about it. I have several part time people on my team, because I don't have the budget for full time in those roles and I've made the job fit the days, it works really well.

Also - most people have children and most people need a job. It is entirely and thoroughly reasonable for people to want to have both at the same time. The sooner everyone wakes up to this (ie why would you NOT have family friendly work practices, it's literally bonkers to pretend no one has kids) the better. (Yes, Wifework, I know)

drspouse I work part-time too but luckily my employer is quite happy to be accommodating in terms of hours. What is "interesting" though is the ticking of boxes. She can't do this or that because she's part-time, and what you can do is never quite credited, and it's not quite thought that you want to advance in your career, probably because you've got "more important things to worry about" like being a mother . I've been much more vigilant on this recently - making sure the right boxes are ticked and making sure I control everything I can about what's written and said about me.

Perhaps I have control freak tendencies and am just indulging in them.

Very , me.

"Also - most people have children and most people need a job. It is entirely and thoroughly reasonable for people to want to have both at the same time. The sooner everyone wakes up to this (ie why would you NOT have family friendly work practices, it's literally bonkers to pretend no one has kids) the better. (Yes, Wifework, I know)"

There is still this unspoken, virtually unknown, presumption that kids can just be slotted in around the needs of everyday work, because in the past someone else was there to take care of it. We haven't begun to get our heads around (as a society) the fact that there is no one else.

The result is the kids get sacrificed, family life gets sacrificed, and ultimately that means society gets sacrificed. We know why we have so many feral kids and why kids go off the rails ffs.

Economics has been the tail wagging the dog society for too long. It is time to wake up.

Oh thank you everyone, in other more sunny news I am making an effort to talk to DS (3) about "girly" things that I am pretty sure many adults think boys aren't interested in. It sounds petty but with no flowers on "boys'" clothes I don't imagine most boys get conversation about colours and types of flowers so we are naming the ones in the nice bunch we got yesterday.

"There is still this unspoken, virtually unknown, presumption that kids can just be slotted in around the needs of everyday work, because in the past someone else was there to take care of it. We haven't begun to get our heads around (as a society) the fact that there is no one else. "

Yy to this.