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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Changes in how rape will be investigated- about time!

590 replies

AWholeLottaNosy · 28/01/2015 22:05

I just read this and I was really pleased. It's about time rape was investigated and prosecuted differently considering the appalling rape conviction rate we have in this country. Imagine there will be an outcry from all the MRAs, but, I think it's very good news...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11375667/Men-must-prove-a-woman-said-Yes-under-tough-new-rape-rules.html

OP posts:
AWholeLottaNosy · 29/01/2015 23:47

Yonic,that's ok, felt good to have a bit of a rant. This isn't a theoretical discussion, it affects real women every day. Which is why I have no time for men like SD.

OP posts:
TheSubjugatedDad · 29/01/2015 23:48

Scallops. It's almost stereotypical of you to frame a polite request to avoid shouty abusive messages to others as 'oppressing women'.

It's not nothing to do with sexism, or men wanting women to know their place. If anything, do it for the forum rules!

PuffinsAreFictitious · 29/01/2015 23:49

Nosy... We Believe You Thanks

Self care, first and foremost. Don't let ridiculous twatbadgers into your head.

cailindana · 29/01/2015 23:50

No you're right SD. Posters should be able to spout any old nonsense with no comeback as long as it's not 'abusive.'

I worry that men who have children with more than one woman might have mental health problems. I mean there's no real evidence of it, but it's something to think about, don't you reckon SD. It's an important issue to discuss.

cailindana · 29/01/2015 23:51

I think I'll start a thread about it, and then tell everyone how to respond.

TheSubjugatedDad · 29/01/2015 23:53

Sure thing, Cailindana. Start a thread about it and I will show how to not be abusive when people post things you disagree with.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Goodnight everyone!

PuffinsAreFictitious · 29/01/2015 23:53

And again, a man comes along, posts utter rubbish, deliberately provocative rubbish, and derails another thread about an issue which affects far, far too many women. It happens every time.

Ignore, move on, why do we always take more notice of male voices? It makes me sad and angry in equal measure.

Flic229 · 29/01/2015 23:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 30/01/2015 00:01

not Welcome to Mumsnet, rape apologist. Don't get comfy.

scallopsrgreat · 30/01/2015 00:03

Reported.

Flic229 · 30/01/2015 00:07

^ ah well, I kind of thought that's what would happen. I think I made some interesting points but they will never be addressed so long as we keep reacting like this.

Thanks for reading, if anyone did. Everyone please stay safe and be thoughtful about our interactions with one another.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 30/01/2015 00:11

Yes, oddly, anyone who suggest that men lied to get into hotel rooms where their friend were having sex with a girl who was completely unknown to them and asked their friend if they could have a go up and down the country is probably going to be greeted with a level of consternation.

I know, I know, this is probably your experience, but hey, I prefer consensual sex.

scallopsrgreat · 30/01/2015 00:16

You can think what you like Flic. Doesn't make it true.

cailindana · 30/01/2015 06:35

You say 'everyone stay safe and be thoughtful in our interactions with each others Flic.
Does that just apply to women? Or should men be thoughtful also?
Don't you think, before putting their penis into someone men should be as close to 100% sure as possible that a woman wants it?

shaska · 30/01/2015 06:58

I just haven't seen anything anywhere except in dodgy MRA type places where anyone has said being drunk makes you unable to consent.

Being unconscious makes you unable to consent. Unconscious-drunk is a different thing to drunk. Everyone knows that.

Pretending you don't know the difference between drunk and unable to consent drunk is ridiculous. Pretending no man should be expected to know that difference is ridiculous. Pretending that it's hard to know if a woman wants to have sex is ridiculous.

On another note- I like hearing from men on this topic and I do think there are a lot of men with worthwhile things to say about it. But there are a couple here who seem so unable/unwilling to understand, it's just weird.

PetulaGordino · 30/01/2015 07:29

thousands of women are having enthusiastically verbally and non-verbally consenting sex and they aren't reporting it as rape.

thousands of women are being raped and they aren't reporting it as rape

The inherent misogyny in all these men worrying about the former suddenly reporting rape falsely, instead of the latter getting a better chance of justice, is just disgusting to watch

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 30/01/2015 07:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PetulaGordino · 30/01/2015 07:58

Excellent post house

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 30/01/2015 07:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yops · 30/01/2015 08:06

Two issues that seem to get conflated time after time in these discussions are;

  1. people who do stuff when drunk, consent at the time, then regret it when they sober up, and
  2. people who have stuff done to them, when drunk, who never wanted it in the first place.

The first isn't rape or assault. The second one is. Isn't it as simple as that?

ApocalypseThen · 30/01/2015 08:27

The rapidly ballooning definition of "rape" makes this a real minefield

Yeah, stupid women thinking that nobody should be sexing them up without their consent. Who could hope to understand something so convoluted?

YonicScrewdriver · 30/01/2015 08:32

Again, such illogic.

If you think you are operating in a minefield, don't you just go more carefully?

"She seems pretty drunk. I'll wait until tomorrow, just in case."

"She's gone a bit quiet. I'll ask if she's ok ."

"She looks upset. I'll stop and we can have a chat."

Not difficult, is it?

cailindana · 30/01/2015 08:59

This is the definition of rape:

-(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.

That definition has not changed at all.

Note point (2):Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

That has been part of the definition since 2003. It is part of defining the defence, and has been for 12 years. All this guidance does is to tell the police and prosecutors to actually do their job, to follow the law and ask the right questions in order to determine whether rape has occurred or not.

You see, what police have been doing, in hundreds of cases, is listening to the distraught and sometimes injured woman explaining what happened, going to the accused and asking him what happened, then just believing the man when he says it was consensual, even in cases where there is forensic evidence of rape. They then write "no crime" and the case is closed.

What this guidance says is, actually, if a woman reports a very serious crime, one that carries the penalty of life imprisonment, it is the duty of the police to actually investigate it, properly.

It is also the duty of the prosecutors to ask the right questions at trial to determine what exactly happened, and to see if the man is trying to claim that a silent, frozen, terrified woman was "consenting."

MoreBeta · 30/01/2015 09:01

For what its worth and I know I will get flamed I thought Flic229 raised some pretty fair points in a well balanced way.

One of my concerns is that somehow the process of investigation and prosecution now goes on autopilot using these 'guidelines'. Its one of this enudge issues. Changing the process without having a change of law to get a articular outcome. Its being done for a very good reason and I agree with that reason, I just worry about the ramifications. I have two mid teenage sons and I think that the definition of what constitutes rape might have accidentally changed.

A man has sex with a drunk woman and he didn't get a 'verbalised yes affirmation'. Police go on autopilot and the case gets sent to CPS. The man and women cat really remember every detail of the night and she isn't sure but under the guidelines the police must press charges.

The two facts we know are the woman had some alcohol and the man didn't get a positive yes. Did he rape her?

Problem is that exact scenario happens thousands of times on a Saturday night all over the country.

I read a post a while ago on MN where a woman had gone back to a man's house taken her clothes off and got into bed with him. With the best will in the world when I was a young man I am pretty sure I would have not questioned whether the woman wanted sex and would not have been seeking a positive 'yes'. The thing is that she decided she didn't want sex in the end and by her own admission on the thread wasn't very clear about it but he was very decent and didn't have sex with her. I am pretty sure a jury would not convict if he had because all her actions pointed to a yes even though she did decide no in the end and not in a very clear way and she did stay in the bed and she did stay until the morning.

People do al sorts of silly things and change their minds and get drunk. I am not sure I want police officers going on autopilot deciding to press rape charges based on 'guidelines' - even if the woman isn't really sure herself.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 30/01/2015 09:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.