A really self-indulgent thread about sexuality and feminism and whether it's just me.

[NotAnotherFuckingNamechange]

As the title says. I've NC because my usual name(s) are both pretty obvious, but if you're especially keen to figure it out PM me - I just don't want to die of shame by having this memorialised on the net.

So, my totally non-identifying (!) backstory. I'm bisexual, I've been out since I was in my teens. I've been in relationships with men because, frankly, it's a damn sight easier. Only, I've got more and more into feminism. I have had quite a lot of conversations, some of them with people on here, where people say that if they weren't with their current (male) partner, they don't know if they'd seek out another male partner - not because we don't like men, but because it is stressful.

I wondered if anyone would like to talk about that?

I'm currently single, and dating, and I keep on thinking, wow, I really don't want to go through the hassle of coping with someone else's male ego. Which feels horribly bigoted of me.

I must admit I also feel faintly embarrassed to be doing a teenage 'questioning my identity' because, for goodness' sake, I've been out for more than half my life and it really shouldn't feel as if I have to explain myself. And yet, I do.

Please patronize me gently, keep the eye rolling to yourselves, etc.

Yes, I think it's absolutely relevant. I think that, because I am conscious of these multiple ways of diminishing women's sexuality, or invisible-ising lesbianism, I do want to think it all through.

I do notice that (IME) men who're bisexual are usually told they're in the closet, whereas women are often told they're just trying to be trendy. I think in both cases, the underlying thing is that we actually don't really believe anyone genuinely likes women, do we?

Sorry, mised your post up. Ouch at your mum. My dad told me it was a phase and I should not mention it until I was 18. But then, he always was low on originality.

I've no idea about finding someone whose foibles don't annoy me. I haven't seriously looked (until, quite literally, weeks ago) since I was 22. And TBH, I fell into that one really. But I take your word it's difficult and can believe it! I would think it's the trade-off for being more interesting than your average 22 year old.

Have you done 'the whole commune thing', btw? You sound as if that's a voice of experience!

lurcio thanks for reducing my being a lesbian woman to finding breasts a turn on and not being fussed about piv. Mabe I should have found myself a guy with moobs and ED a long time ago and enjoyed a life of happy straight privilige.

I don't get that dejarderoncar. How is what lurcio says about what she might do reducing your being a lesbian?

Thanks Flora. I really wasn't trying to be dismissive of lesbianism, dejarderoncar, simply pointing out that for some people (not all), facts about what turn them on about their preferred gender sexual partner's body are important and can't be got round/brushed under the carpet (because I sometimes see people trying to give well-meaning advice saying "well, it's the person you fall in love with that matters" - and that may be so for some people, and I wish them well with it, but it's not what makes me tick, nor many other people).

lurcio just pointing out that sexual orientation is so much more than being turned on by physical attributes however important a part that may or may not play in any particular case. If my partner lost her breasts to cáncer I would still find her attractive, and many lesbians get sexual pleasure from `piv´ as long as there is not a man attached to the p! Anyway, sorry if I misunderstood you.

Yes, sorry, I get you totally about the "so much more than". I guess what I was clumsily trying to get at is that for me personally (and I freely accept that other people may be different), the physical attributes are a necessary (though not sufficient) condition for getting turned on to someone in the first place. To use your example, if my (non-existent) husband were to develop ED, I'd try to find a way of working round it because I loved him. But if I was on line dating and a potential partner mentioned he had ED, I would find a very gentle way of letting him down (citing other reasons) because I wouldn't be prepared to start a relationship with someone I knew had ED. That probably makes me seem terribly shallow. Perhaps I am terribly shallow. But I think women are socially put under enormous pressure not to think of themselves as sexual beings (even now!) and to brush sexual and physical issues under the carpet because "what matters is emotional connection", when in fact to some, perhaps a lot of women, physical attributes do matter.

I think you shift your mindset. I've done that and it's actually peculiar shifting it back!

I keep having these delayed 'oh ... that person, who was being so nice, was actually very attractive. And now I'm too late to flirt with them' reactions.

well, I don't hate men either. Pretty sure I've said that upthread, too.

Pretty sure I wasn't implying that you did.

I'm also aware that you say you're bi at the outset of the thread. My post wasn't questioning that, it was more about whatever might lead anyone to prefer relationships with a particular gender (including feminism), is as good a reason as any. Not disingenuous. Etc.

Ah, fine - I didn't quite get what you were getting at, to be honest, but that's probably me being a bit confused in general!

Probably also to do with me blundering in halfway through and not following the gist of where the thread was at - I'm sorry I hadn't meant to add more confusion but did! I hope you successfully work your way through your musings

Oh, goodness, no, the more confusions the merrier!

It's not as if I was ever a clear, logical poster, and certainly not here. I think I was a bit confused by your posting because in my head, the questions I'm trying to ask here are obvious, and I am not asking permission to date women. I'm just trying to figure out how feminism and sexuality interact, and why. I've actually found people's responses really useful, but they did make me aware I'd obviously phrased things badly to start with.

Thanks for helping me out.

I'm just trying to figure out how feminism and sexuality interact, and why.

It is an interesting dynamic to ponder!

FWIW, the most decidedly feminist of my friends is completely straight. The only lesbian I know personally, who's identified as such since childhood is not particularly interested in feminism.

For me, it's probably both due to my feminist ideals and my past experiences with men, that I don't want to be with one again. I've realised that it's not so much my ideals but my independence which has made relationships with men difficult - and that sense of independence has definitely been bolstered and empowered by feminism, iyswim? The women I've been with (as I said earlier) valued being wanted rather than needed yet the males I've been with have needed to be needed.

So, for me, feminism has an indirect but not direct impact upon my sexuality!

Interesting thread.

I think I'm probably 90% straight, I don't really fancy women, but I don't know if that's socialisation or sexuality. I do fancy men, but very few of them.

However i can't see myself entering into a serious relationship with a man, simply because I just can't abide the thought of it atm. They take up too much time, space and energy which I'm too lazy/ busy to donate to them. And most of them just aren't as interesting as I find women are - as soon as things get anything near real, you find the blinding, disappointing privilege and it's a barrier that I am no longer willing to try and pull down. It's easier to walk away. My energy is for me, my children and other women, I'm not giving it to men any more.

That is fascinating, amantes.

I do feel, for me, it is definiely partly a feminist issue. I don't find men less attractive - I just feel this sense that I don't want to get into things with a man, and that the whole process would be so exhausting and dehumanising.

basil - that's interesting. I agree with you, men being bloody boring is an issue! But then, while I admire, and partially envy, your set-up where you are focussed on yourself and your family, I do know it's not for me.

I just feel this sense that I don't want to get into things with a man, and that the whole process would be so exhausting and dehumanising.

A step backwards in your personal evolution? Or am I projecting

DH is probably a good husband from a feminist point of view (relatively) - he's a SAHD, he does his share of the house stuff, he provides a lot of emotional support for me, we have interesting conversations, he doesn't try to tell me what to do.

But I'm not sure I would seek another relationship with a man if we split up. In my experience the kind of men who like being in a relationship with a strong independent woman (disclaimer gross generalisation to follow) are either pig headed to the point of being annoying (I can never tell DH to do anything unless I want him to revert to childish petulance) or so weak-willed it makes me want to weep.

It seems like the ego management challenges of my day to day would be lessened if I were in a relationship with a woman. Even if I think about the most argumentative women I know, their aggression is still slightly different - it doesn't come from a place of certainty in the outcome. I do love DH but he can be hard work.

That is looking at it from a companionship and personality compatibility angle. From the sex point of view it becomes more complex, because I do think that experience and socialisation affect who we find attractive at an intrinsic level. I would say I am about 75% straight but it's changing as I age, I would have said 90% in my twenties - the things I want from sex aren't the same as they were when I was 20, maybe because of the emotional aspects. I don't know. It's hard to say without being in the situation, because it's so much about the other person and the "fit".

I can believe women are conditioned to be more sexually fluid, but I wonder if it is innate.

This resonated a lot with me. Also your point about how bi men are assumed to be in the closet but bi women are going through a phase. We are often told how to feel by society, as women, rather than asked (I'm thinking of the media, advertising, films, etc but also in day to day life when we express things we're not supposed to). I don't think it's true that we are more sexually fluid than men. I think it's true that we more often accept life choices that aren't what we would prefer though. So maybe it isn't fluidity rather it's a form of self-defence and a reflection of it taking most women longer than the average man to feel properly independent (in a self-actualisation sense) in the world?

Also for me I see sexual attraction as a complex interplay of life stage, personality fit, physical attraction and a host of other factors. Looked at one way it could be seen as fluid, looked at another way it's a sensible way to pick a partner and the societal modus operandi of "fit" (based on labels such as race, class, gender etc) isn't really working, ref divorce rate.

I am bi and do struggle with it. Maybe that's just what stage I'm at though. In the last year I just feel this anger towards men that I haven't felt before which I feel would impede meaningful communication. It'll take me time to get through that. I am a bit prejudiced towards men, it's the truth. I suppose I've been getting used to the idea that I feel I can't trust men 100%, ever.

I prefer women much more anyway, just in terms of physical attraction! In fact usually I would describe myself as a lesbian, but there's always the odd cute guy who pops up to burst that idea. Pain in the arse.

I think if you are bi and you start to identify more with women than men socially it would probably predispose you towards a sane sex relationship or a single life.

Lots of the mothers I know have found the combination of feeling much closer to other women when coupled with the shocking, disappointing realisation that the father of their child/ren is more sexist than they thought has made them think again about future relationships. Two close friends in particular (who are having a hard time in their opposite sex marriages and are considering leaving) have started asking me about what it is like to be bisexual. And no they weren't hitting on me, just trying to think through whether an alternative future might exist for them