A really self-indulgent thread about sexuality and feminism and whether it's just me.

[NotAnotherFuckingNamechange]

As the title says. I've NC because my usual name(s) are both pretty obvious, but if you're especially keen to figure it out PM me - I just don't want to die of shame by having this memorialised on the net.

So, my totally non-identifying (!) backstory. I'm bisexual, I've been out since I was in my teens. I've been in relationships with men because, frankly, it's a damn sight easier. Only, I've got more and more into feminism. I have had quite a lot of conversations, some of them with people on here, where people say that if they weren't with their current (male) partner, they don't know if they'd seek out another male partner - not because we don't like men, but because it is stressful.

I wondered if anyone would like to talk about that?

I'm currently single, and dating, and I keep on thinking, wow, I really don't want to go through the hassle of coping with someone else's male ego. Which feels horribly bigoted of me.

I must admit I also feel faintly embarrassed to be doing a teenage 'questioning my identity' because, for goodness' sake, I've been out for more than half my life and it really shouldn't feel as if I have to explain myself. And yet, I do.

Please patronize me gently, keep the eye rolling to yourselves, etc.

I love it amantes. I can't see me ever changing. Why would I? I'm too selfish to change lol.
I just love a quiet life! I don't miss sex and let's face it what else are they any use for? Men are a pain in the ass.

I sat in peace for an hour today outside feeding the birds. Then I walked the dog by the river. Made a casserole for dd. I'm happy as a pig in muck. I love my job. No stress, no hassle.

I know you, I think :)

Please stop worrying about what anyone will think/whether you're too old to "question your identity"/not being good enough/worrying the "proper" lesbians will judge you or whatever it is.

In reality, if you meet a woman you like and strike up something with her, 99% of people you know will be fundamentally unbothered, except to be pleased for you. Given the type of people most feminists choose to have around in their lives (except family you can't choose), I think even if I - so far a sadly dull straight person - mentioned "my girlfriend" it would be the gossip of a few days and everyone would forget about it.

Only saying that because, yes, your relationships have been with men so you've never had to face the day to day stuff of being an overt, in your face, non-straight - of defying people's expectations (because, if only due to statistics, most people expect most people to be straight). And I can totally see why that would be nerve-racking.

And yet you don't want to chicken out because that will make you some kind of amateur bisexual who might be thought to only identify that way to be cool and edgy?

Please, just relax. You clearly want to get on with your life, so leave all these worries behind. Listen to "let it go" on loop 10 or 12 times maybe? :) Fingers crossed for you meeting and having a good time with a lovely person as you deserve, regardless of their gender.

Hi, sorry, I went to bed so missed the last few posts. Thank you for the nice comments and the robust 'get over yourself' message, too.

But, I think you've misunderstood (!) though I can see why now I'm reading back. I was referring back to yonic's post about education and feminism when I said I think I'm not good enough at that (so it's not that a huge part of my identity has been Great Educator of Men).

And, if you find this to be over-thinking, and dull, that's totally valid. I did admit this is a self-indulgent thread.

What I'm curious about is, there are a few people on this thread who're saying if they split up with male partners, they wouldn't seek out someone else. Is this because, as feminists, they've started (excuse me talking about you in the third person!) feeling uncomfortable with heterosexual relationships and the power dynamics that come with them? Or because (like irene), they no longer feel the need to bow to that patriarchial 'OMG, single woman must need man' pressure?

I wondered if it might not be just that sense 'I don't want to go through the process again'? Because it seems to me that an awful lot of men are perfectly nice and decent and I am sure I could go out and find someone and fall in love. And so could most of us on this thread. And once we got to a certain point in the relationship, it'd be fine. But there is a huge amount of work there.

Anyway - back to the feminist bit.

It seems to me that, when you're starting into a relationship with someone, what makes it is developing a sense that the two of you understand each other. You know, you have those conversations where you feel terribly pleased the other person got your joke, or liked what you liked. But, with some elements of life, if you're talking to someone of the opposite sex, you are at more of a distance (which has been conditioned in). So, you are communicating at a greater distance, or translating more, or whatever. I'm not sure this is a bad thing. But I think it means that there is more of you, as a person, that remains not obvious to the other person in that relationship.

Does that make any sense?

And please, if you hate this thread and find it wanky as all get-out, just ignore it.

Oh, sorry, and blistory, no, I can't imagine she would have the slightest problem with that. It is possible we'd argue over queer theory. That is something I can live with (though I do really notice it as a general issue outside MN, as I said to upand).

OP, I don't think you are selfindulgent at all. You are trying to figure out what you value and what you want. That sounds pretty smart to me!

It is the polar opposite of women who dive into bed with another woman, profess undying love and then back out again with all haste because they have decided that they can't hack being in a same sex relationship. Or they are still straight. Or they shouldn't/don't think they deserve to be with anyone.

Whilst I can understand their confusion, that approach does tend to involve a string of broken hearts which would perhaps have been avoidable if a slower, more thoughtful approach has been taken. So I think you should be applauded, honestly I do. I hope that you find happiness either alone or with someone else - as you choose!

Thanks, ocelot.

Re another relationship, I can't imagine taking or having the time to build another relationship with job and kids.

Back to you - if I could wave a magic axe and assure you that no one would ever label you as queer, would going forward with female relationships get a little/a lot/completely/not at all more comfortable (delete as inappropriate)

What we need on this thread is a proper political lesbian.

To be honest, I think I'd find a relationship with anyone who was sexist or racist etc a complete non starter regardless of their sex. I could maybe have shrugged it off to an extent when younger but not now that I've come to realise the very real harm that is done by discrimination.

I'm not convinced that being a lesbian necessarily correlates with having a better understanding of the oppression women face although logic would dictate otherwise.

For me it really isn't about not wanting men, it's about not needing men. I'm open to finding someone but I'm equally open to walking away from someone rather than struggle through inequalities which, for me, is a massive change in attitude from when I was younger.

It feels a bit daft saying this but I'm tired of having to explain that I don't want flowers, chocolates or a spa day. I don't want to feel guilty for earning more, I don't want to be the primary carer for someone else's child simply because I'm the female bit of a partnership, I don't want to hand over the keys to my car, I don't want endless discussions about porn and strip clubs, I don't want to explain that I don't need protecting, I don't want to worry about male ego. And the reality is that I've had enough relationships with enough men to realise that a lot of lip service is paid to being a feminist ally but deep down, very few really get it.

I have some wonderful men in my life, I welcome their companionship and friendship, I respect them and some I even adore but I'm not prepared to live my life on their terms and if, after some dates, it becomes obvious that someone holds sexist beliefs, I'd rather thank them for a good time and move on. I no longer see it as my job to suck it up, or to educate them, or to apologise for my own views.

But, with some elements of life, if you're talking to someone of the opposite sex, you are at more of a distance (which has been conditioned in). So, you are communicating at a greater distance, or translating more, or whatever. I'm not sure this is a bad thing. But I think it means that there is more of you, as a person, that remains not obvious to the other person in that relationship.

I understand this reasoning, however, some of my closest friends are male. Two in particular know me inside out and understand me fully.

I don't know if it is the type of men I've been with in relationships or the relationship dynamic, which means there's been an insurmountable distance but there has been. I think I've come to believe it's a bit of both, i think. Not only do i pick the wrong men for relationships but also, the relationship dynamic brings out the worst in them.

For one thing, my male friends love me for being me. My male partners have loved me, except for ...... I have felt male partners would like to mould me into their ideal. Male friends want me just as I am, warts and all. Male partners have really struggled with my independence, that they are not needed but wanted. The women I've been with have valued being wanted over being needed, so have understood their value to me, whereas male partners have always had to have that reinforced and if I haven't pandered to that, there has been trouble. Decay.

There are so many variables and so many experiences which might lead someone to become disenchanted with male/ female relationships, that I don't think it can possibly be considered to be disingenuous, to choose not to favour those relationships.

I think if you think you may prefer women now, for whatever reason, including feminism, then you have always been not entirely straight, therefore you are not choosing to become gay, as such but choosing the relationship type which best suits you now, for whatever reason - and to my mind, that's OK!

Yes, but blis, isn't everyone sexist?

I'm not convinced being a lesbian correlates with having a better understanding of oppression either. I was more thinking, I am curious why I'm finding for me that feminism makes me think differently about sexuality (and maybe vice versa).

I think I get what you mean about not wanting those things. It is wearing, isn't it?

buffy - yes, keeping men in the basement for sex is definitely a helpful suggestion - if only I had a basement.

No, but seriously, it is helpful, and interesting.

irene - nice thought. But I don't mind me being labelled as queer for my sake - though I find it faintly irritating - I mind it because, as upand says, it's a way of making lesbianism less visible. It's a term that has come to include an immensely diverse group of people in a way that seems pretty unhelpful a lot of the time.

I am slightly kicking against the idea (which a few people have expressed to me) that if my marriage broke down and I don't want another relationship with a man, it must be to do with sexuality. And I don't think it is. I think it is to do with feminism.

Cross post.

amantes, like I said in the OP, I'm bisexual. I never thought I was entirely straight.

I think your experience is interesting - I don't think I have that with male friends, either. I do genuinely think there is a gap that will always be there. It isn't (for me) about accepting someone else, it's about experiences that someone of the opposite sex simply does not, and in our society cannot, have.

Cross posted, Blistory but yy to this!

I'm tired of having to explain that I don't want flowers, chocolates or a spa day. I don't want to feel guilty for earning more, I don't want to be the primary carer for someone else's child simply because I'm the female bit of a partnership, I don't want to hand over the keys to my car, I don't want endless discussions about porn and strip clubs, I don't want to explain that I don't need protecting, I don't want to worry about male ego. And the reality is that I've had enough relationships with enough men to realise that a lot of lip service is paid to being a feminist ally but deep down, very few really get it.

Complex, isn't it? I've often thought that if something happened to my husband, my ideal situation would be to cohabit with another woman. Not really in a sexual relationship way, more in a sharing way. My experience of relating to women overall is more positive, empathic and based on sharing than my experience with men where's there's often an undertone of one upmanship.

Of course all women are different, but if I were looking for someone to share a cooperative, mutually sharing life with, the chances are that I'd be more likely to find that companionship in a woman.

It isn't (for me) about accepting someone else, it's about experiences that someone of the opposite sex simply does not, and in our society cannot, have.

Before I had a son, I looked at men a very different way. I'm so glad I have a son! Because I was becoming militant in my feministic, anti patriarchal, man hating (it's true, i did) views.

I'm not saying every man is capable of empathy (far from it!) and capable of empathy without patronisation but the male friends I have now, are.

I didn't meet them until my thirties. Had I not had a son, the wall would have gone up against the majority of interaction with males and my mind would never have been opened to the existence if male sympathisers. I'm glad it has but I'll still never date one

I've not had time to read all thread yet (though will do so later), just wanted to quickly pop in and make a couple of points:

1. I have had brief relationships with men but have been out as a lesbian for 30 years. It works for me! BUT I don't buy this thing that women are naturally more understanding, more co-operative, more caring. Believe me, relationships with women are no easier than relationships with men.

1. You seriously don't need to be embarrassed about 'questioning your identity' at this stage. For a start, women's sexuality is much more fluid than men's and women come out at all different ages. Second, 'questioning your identity' implies that you have a fixed but hidden identity that you're a doofus for not noticing before. Surely you are just moving into different phases of your life, making different choices, exploring different options? Nothing to be ashamed of there.

Best of luck.

apocalypse - oddly enough, I am cohabiting with another (straight) woman. And it is actually a very good solution to not wanting to be alone, but not wanting to be in a relationship either.

buffy - that makes sense (and yes, obviously, this must be odd for those of you commenting from lovely happy marriages who're trying to picture how you'd be if they failed, which I hope they don't too!).

amantes - well, I don't hate men either. Pretty sure I've said that upthread, too.

devora - but is women's sexuality more fluid? Someone - Glosswitch, I think? - had a really good post on this a while ago. She was saying how that idea feeds into the related idea that women's sexuality is somehow less important than men's, that women are more flexible in general. And I remember really being influenced by that.

I can believe women are conditioned to be more sexually fluid, but I wonder if it is innate.

Thank you for the good luck.

I do want to say - I do not think women are naturally more compassionate etc. I am not buying into the 'aww, aren't women lovely' thing. I am aware that could sound quite offensive to you, TBH.

Are you attracted to men and women ? The answer appears to be yes.

Are you attracted to men or women who are anti-women ? The answer appears to be no.

Which kind of suggests that for you, any relationship that breaks down, is more likely to be due to your feminist beliefs rather then sexuality. Obviously excluding the hundred and one other reasons for a relationship breakdown.

I think it's entirely understandable that feminism makes anyone questioning why they would enter into a relationship with a man given the inherent difficulties that arise due to inequality. Which leads to if you're bisexual, and you're attracted equally to a man and a woman, then the woman is the more logical choice. That doesn't negate your bisexuality and mean that you're really a lesbian - it's simply a sensible feminist perspective.

Or is that too simplistic ?

NAFN - If you are who I think you are, then you are a lovely, fascinating, intelligent person who has really given me food for thought over a number of threads over the years. And if you are who I think you are I do remember a very early thread on which you mentioned something your ex had done which made me think "that's not a trivial thing, that's a man being an arse because he thinks he's more important than you are," so I was possibly one of the few people not to be at all surprised when you mentioned in the "Pub" that you were separating.

Speaking for myself (and I freely admit this is from a position of straight privilege: I've never had to deal with "cool girls" invading my cultural space because "being a bit bi is edgy and sexy, innit?"), I've always thought in some ways being bi made more sense than being exclusively gay or straight. But like Buffy I'd rate myself as about 98% straight, in that I can imagine myself in a close, loving relationship with another woman, but not a 'rip the clothes off one another and screw each other senseless right now' sort of relationship.

Okay - where am I going with this long, self-indulgent ramble? Well, recently I think (not entirely sure and for various reasons, not least the 98% straight and it's not fair to start a sexual relationship with someone where you don't fancy them stupid, I wasn't in a position to clarify) that I had the chance of a "political lesbian" relationship. And I was very tempted. I've been single now for over 10 years and when I look back on my adult life to date, I've had 3 long-ish relationships and quite a few flings, interspersed with longish periods of being on my own. My sense of this is that I've done more, been happier, had a fuller life when I've been on my own.

Now people up thread have said that this is just intrinsic to relationships, regardless of the sex of the partners. But I'm not entirely sure I buy this, because it seems to me that we are massively socialised to see men as "well they are as they are and you just have to fit round them" - whether it's attitudes housework, wifework (the hidden managerial stuff), how much physical space they take up, whose hobbies come first, who goes part time... Yes, you can go against these cultural expectations - but the point is in the word "against" - you are not making a neutral, free choice with no emotional baggage attached, you are actively having to rebel. And that takes enormous mental and emotional energy - there's a massive cost. And you have to do it again, and again, and again, and that's so draining. Whereas (and again I freely admit this may be because I was only seeing the fantasy, not the reality) it seemed to me that with another woman there would be this enormously liberating sense of "yes, we have to find compromises like any couple, but there are no pre-built expectations about who does the compromising, and thus no enormous mental effort involved if we go against that expectation".

So, if I found breasts a turn on and didn't think I'd miss PIV, would I go for a relationship with another woman? Like a shot!

blis, no, not too simplistic, perfectly simple and I probably should have written in just like that in my OP.

lurcio - thank you very much, both for being so kind and for telling me about your experience. That's the sort of thing I was wondering, how it is for other people. It's interesting both that you were tempted, and that you were able to stand back and realize it wasn't the right thing for you, or for the other person.

I am really unsure what's 'intrinsic' to relationships, too. That is not saying 'ooh, women are lovely' or assuming relationships with women must be magically easy, and I get devora's point there (besides which it seems to me to play into that same stereotype, that women just don't have the complexity and real emotion men do ). But I do wonder about socialisation.

I think some of the issue may be, when I was talking about gaps between men and women, such that part of you has to stay obscure to the other person - well, I think some people like that a lot. And others not so much. And that to me seems not precisely an issue of sexuality.

What I'm curious about is, there are a few people on this thread who're saying if they split up with male partners, they wouldn't seek out someone else. Is this because, as feminists, they've started (excuse me talking about you in the third person!) feeling uncomfortable with heterosexual relationships and the power dynamics that come with them? Or because (like irene), they no longer feel the need to bow to that patriarchial 'OMG, single woman must need man' pressure?

I would probably be in this category if I split with DH. I have no interest in a relationship with a woman which is purely a matter of sexuality. I don't think women's sexuality is more fluid than men and I agree with NAFN that this can be used to diminish women's sexuality. The grim details of the CE/CM rape had some distinctly homo-erotic elements as do a lot of these sorts of things that footballers do as a team. Also, it makes me think of a twitter row last year between a lesbian porn performer and a transwoman who was castigating her for not having sex with a transwoman in her films. A number of people said that since she used sex toys she should not object to penetration by the "female penis". The performer tried to explain that her sexuality is more than that and she doesn't want to participate in someone's penis-involved orgasm. That to me was a very strong indication of women's sexuality being diminished.

Anyway sorry if that is a derail. I think it's relevant to the issue of what is the impact of sexuality versus feminist / male ego concerns or a general sense of CBA with the hassle.

For me personally, I have kids and don't want any more. I don't feel the need to bow to the "must have a man" pressure. There are some relationship issues that would be dealbreakers for me that probably wouldn't have been when I was younger. In general, I feel I CBA with the negotiation involved in make a relationship with a man work. Also the current dating scene seems horrible. I'm not sure how much of that is a factor.