Feminist Pub 16: where the Bluestockings develop armoured stockings to deal with the thousand paper cuts

[FibonacciSeries]

Carry on.

I know, LordCopper - one of the points is "get a male buddy to support you by visibly nodding and paying good attention when you speak". Well there is nothing particularly or unusually obnoxious about the men I work with but if I were to say to one of them, "look. women have a problem with being disrespected when we speak. I want you to visibly support me when I speak" I would just get snorts. "I support everyone!" "Women are not disrespected, it's all in your head. We all have to push to speak and get airtime, you should just push harder" and so on. It would make me look a right eejit and really set me back.

I am actually (now, at the age of 43) really good at speaking in meetings. I have learnt how to get in there and speak engagingly and concisely and I have been congratulated on "when you speak, people listen". It has been hard, I didn't get there instantly and I spent a good 10 years saying practically nothing (while being full of thoughts), so I am not saying these problems are imagined, I am saying I am seasoned and I have learnt some strategies. HOWEVER it doesn't FUKCING HELP ME. It doesn't change the way that I am perceived as not promotion material. Something is holding me back - something in me or something systemic - but it is not that.

Symphysiotomy is just grotesque. The only, ONLY justification I have read for it that makes any kind of sense was when it was performed on women who lived in very remote rural areas and had no access to contraception and would be very unlikely to have access to medical care for subsequent births, in which case the alternative might well be death in childbirth.

But still, a better alternative would surely have been no subsequent pregnancies, ie no PIV sex for men? But then the woman would be stigmatised as barren...

they wouldn't be doing their duty as good catholic women in that case amethyst, according to the doctor who "treated" one of the women

Absolutely, Petula - that attitude is indefensible. I'm thinking more of women in remote parts of Africa although they were mostly brainwashed by the church as well.

Ah I see what you mean, though the reduction in quality of life almost certainly isn't worth it and it is no justification (I know that's not what you're saying obviously)

My Grannie was a good catholic woman. Although she didn't have such a barbaric procedure, she now has severe osteoporosis as they couldn't afford for her to eat well enough during pregnancy with so many children to feed too, and her quality of life is not good

My godmother was Irish, and although not from a Catholic family, she was one of 13 children. The tragic thing is that her parents were first cousins, and this dreadful dementia ran in the family. All of them, one after another, ended up basically catatonic for years before they died. Not really a feminist issue, but if they'd known, if they'd been able to use birth control, so much sadness could have been avoided.

the thing that is brilliant about that house is that it already pre-empts the comments that are going to appear below. no one can post them without looking like a (more of a) nob (than usual). not that that will stop them i'm sure

I'm at a bit of a loss.

Had a meeting yesterday with occupational health who told me that if I couldn't go back to my management role immediately, my employers are going to demote me, and that there isn't any slack to create a job for me, so I will be unemployed. So, not only does someone's negligence cause me to damage my back in a lifelong way, but I now get to lose my job. The confirmation that no matter what physio I do, there's not a huge amount they can do for me has also made me think about the future. Who on earth is going to want to employ someone who's back could go ping again any time?

I know what they're doing is perfectly legal, but also a kick in the teeth really.

It's also making me seriously look at what I was planning to do at university. bugger.

WTF Puffins? That's awful! Have you spoken to someone who knows legal stuff? Solicitor? Trade union?

Shit puffins what scary and upsetting news

Was the negligence on their part?

I spoke to ACAS, they are allowed to do this, it's within the letter, if not the spirit of the law. I now have to look at the distasteful step of a personal injury lawsuit.

Yes, Petula, someone failed to report that a piece of equipment was leaking water, or clear up the water on the floor but put a mat over it instead. I stood on the mat, which aquaplaned and I landed flat on my sacrum. My sacroilliac joint is now naffed.

As it's affecting your ability to earn a living, it's the right thing to do, Puffins x

That sounds agonising, I'm sorry

I would getyourself over to the legal or employment section here and get some advice from the experts there (before backing up with RL expertise)

Was this the ACAS helpline Puffins? It's a great resource and everything, but please don't rely on them for anything as complicated as this. There are a lot of complicated, interwoven issues here and it doesn't sound to me (ex employment lawyer) that they've fully appreciated them all.

There may be issues of disability law and reasonable adjustments. If you are disabled (and you might be within the meaning of the law, you'd have to find out) they have to make adjustments to try and allow you to stay in your job. If that isn't possible, before they dismissed you they'd be expected to think more broadly about adjustments (for example, not saying that you want this to happen, but you've talked about not creating a junior job. It's true that they don't have to create a 'fake' job. But surely if they promoted someone into your management role it would leave their old job as a vacancy?)

Even leaving that aside, whether they can dismiss you for competence is quite complex and depends on things like how long you've been off and prognosis. Even very senior employment lawyers and HR Directors will be cautious about saying it's ok to dismiss someone after a workplace injury (which doesn't affect the law, but does affect the sympathy of the tribunal, which is a big issue in employment law). I wouldn't rely on a helpline (or occ health) to make that call.

There may be additional complications if you have PHI insurance through your work. If not, look into whether you have it through any other avenue (most commonly mortgage).

Finally, in terms of initial comments, yes, personal injury is a possibility. It sounds like they royally fucked up health and safety.

I've been out of the area a few years now, but I don't think it's as simple as putting up with it.

I hope you aren't in tooo much pain and that it is being sympathetically managed with enough medication. So sorry to hear what happened to you.

Hi all. Sorry, I missed the bus and had to catch up. I NC for trivial reasons (I'm less searchable under this name, and want to be incognita except to you lovely people for a bit).

annie, good on you for getting two jobs - I just gasped at the first post, but how shit it's in the wrong place. Though, having commuted from one to the other, I do take your point, and IME you're lucky if it's 2.5 hours each way, so it is quite a brutal commute.

Clearly people do want you (as of course they bloody should!), so I hope the right thing will come along soon.

I'd seen articles about the operation before. It's awful, isn't it? I can't begin to think.

It is on a much, much lower level ... but it has always shocked me how some medics see things like women being incontinent as a result of labour. As if it's some minor issue, and not worth bothering about.

puffins - what the fuck? This sounds awful.

Oh, and re. feminist issues, children and space - I've just read Jane Hawking's autobiography, and that is really scary reading. She writes about how she had times when she was, essentially, choosing between going to her husband (who couldn't move without her, and was quite fragile) and going after her child, or going to A&E with her child or her husband. It's absolutely terrifying.

Thanks, and thanks especially to Penguins. I'm going to talk to an actual real lawyer (as opposed to one of the claims management companies) as soon as I can get an appointment, and I'll bring up your points, that was extremely helpful. The company I work for has a proud history of 10 hour contracts, and my direct management are making noises about managing people out of the business, because we're over our contract base and head office are getting jumpy.

Buffy you had such crap birth experiences that SI joint problems is just a kick in the teeth. I am hoping to get an MRI done soon, to see how badly it's been damaged, but my sacrum is visibly out of whack and has been for weeks now, physio notwithstanding. So, hoping for the best, but planning for the worst iyswim?

I was just so shocked that, despite me doing everything right and the lack of communication from my work, they felt it to be a good idea to get someone from outside the organisation to break it to me that I'm on borrowed time. (Especially as my line manager has been off for far longer than I have, for a sports related injury and no one is talking about demoting or sacking her!)

I hope it was helpful Puffins. As I said, I'm a bit out of date. But sacking someone for being off sick, especially where it is a work injury, would be the sort of thing that would generally have us gathered around in the office debating how legally risky it was to the client. It really isn't a simple thing to do.

Also, when you mention it being out of whack for 'weeks', does that mean the accident was quite recent? You'd normally expect months of absence with no reasonable prospect of return for your 'average' capability dismissal. Where it might get more tricky is if you've not been there long enough to have straight unfair dismissal rights but don't fall under disability. But that's something you need to work through with a proper lawyer.

They sound, TBH, like they are arseholes who've seen a chance to reduce their 'cost base'. Charming people.

LRD! You're you again!

Everything seems to be on the move, job-wise. Two recruiters called me today and both have positions they want to put me forward for, so fingers crossed that it's all finally happening.

Oh, brilliant!

I am so pleased - yay!

(And yes, I'm me. )