sorry/thank you

[MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom]

A few months ago I posted, asking about feminism and making some generalisations, assumptions and the tired old 'we don't need feminism anymore ' got rolled out.

You all gave me a kick up the backside and told me to read about feminism. I did so, and it's revolutionised the way I think. I can't believe I insisted that we are treated fairly and equally. I'm reading Everyday Sexism at the moment and I've cried at bits, the inequality and pain that women have had to endure and the doors slammed in our faces on the basis of our sex.

Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth.

I see it as a matter of perspective, really. I've been trying to work out how to do this as a graphic, I'll see if I can put one together quickly.

All women see the small inequalities. It's just putting them together that we don't always do until later. I have friends who identify openly as feminists and friends who don't really talk about it or think of themselves in that way but all of them will commiserate on any issue you can think of, as long as it's not too theory based - we're not blind, even if we don't see the full picture.

I can't draw it as I would like but it reminds me of this optical illusion/puzzle.

Imagine men's and women's rights/privilege are both represented as towers. The men's tower is quite a bit higher than the woman's tower.

When you're unenlightened, you're standing at one side or the other and you have no context in which to place these towers. If you're on the man's side, you can see the man's tower is higher, but you assume that's because it's closer. They must be the same size really. If you're on the woman's side, the towers look the same size. Without context to tell you that the women's tower is closer, you can't tell it's appearing bigger.

Equally, if you're too close to any one tower it's impossible to judge the size of the other because the one you're close to is too big and in the way.

When you step right back, out of the room, add the perspective lines, join them up, you can see that actually one tower is bigger, and it doesn't matter which way around you view them, that is always the case even if the smaller tower appears bigger.

Does that make any sense at all to anyone?

In the image, if you don't know the puzzle, the cylinder at the back of the picture looks taller and thicker than the one at the front which looks tiny. But if you take out the lines or compare them directly, they are all the same size. My example doesn't start with two the same size but it's the same idea.

Gah sorrry I have a tendency to overexplain and then come across patronising, I hope I haven't just done that again. I just like explaining things

I totally get it and no your explaining was really helpful not patronising! It's an interesting concept

Agree Gray's. Great analogy Bertie.

Jeez Bertie that is excellent, a really clear and appropriate image. I wish I had your imagination.

it came to mind when I was angry at DH because he couldn't see something and then he said he was upset that I saw the world as "such a hostile and awful place" and I suddenly realised it wasn't THAT he wasn't seeing, it was everything, and had a flashback to a conversation with one of the Postgrad students who was running our seminars when I was at uni and she said that whenever she discussed feminism the women immediately get it and the men never believe it.

Maybe I'll try and scribble it down as a cartoon or someone more talented than me at drawing can.

It works for any kind of privilege really. It's hard to see privilege when you have it. So in fact I can't credit only those two conversations, but also one particular friend (who is black, if it's relevant) opening my eyes to white privilege, which she shouldn't have had to do.

Put it into a thesis or research paper Bertie. I love conceptual sketches in research papers. I am very a very visual person because I am an engineer I guess but I totally lack imagination because I am an engineer I guess

It is as good as any conceptual drawing I have seen and I haven't even seen it yet.

Ha! I would love to but I'm just an EFL teacher. Funnily though you are so right - my engineering company students are totally rubbish at the activities which require imagination but give them a diagram to label and explain and they're fighting over the pens.

I love metaphors and analogies, so much so that it annoys me if they're slightly off. And I like explaining things. Now repeating myself

Grays: I can understand your concern and it may be because I am a (very) old feminist who has seen what you describe now since the early 1960s that I cannot get exercised by it very much. We have better things to do than try to convince people who are not well disposed to feminism in the first place and therefore take these clowns' views as real that feminism is not like that. Because they want to believe that it is like that and these views are simply confirmation. Basically, I am too old and jaded to worry about twats.

I understand grimble. Love this: Basically, I am too old and jaded to worry about twats

Do you have any examples that aren't from ~1950?

*"I would imagine non-feminists intentionally avoid speaking to those who suggest their sons/brothers/husbands/male friends etc pigs or simpleton idiots who only think with their penis or rapists

Wat"*

@gincamparidryvermouth
Non-feminist women generally do not hate men and boys. They often have husbands/sons/brothers/male friends they love and care about. Try and understand why they might not like you or want to talk to you.

"Why don't you ask us what we think about (a) false accusations of rape, (b) domestic violence against men, (c) adverts that stereotype men as household bumblers or incompetent fathers, (d) whether we in fact believe that all men are rapists?"

Go on then, what do you think of false accusations of rape. And spare me the crap about how they "don't exist" or how "rare" they are. Tell me what you think about the false accusations of rape that happen and how the victim might be affected.

I know what you all think about male victims of DV. You think if a woman hits a man, the man must have done something to deserve it. Either that or the patriarchy is to blame somewhere. Adult women must never be held responsible if they hit someone.

Am I right?

No. Who are you and why should we?

Another man telling us what we think.

"I know what you all think"

Excellent. Wish I was psychic on a mass scale. Must be so useful.

Pbp, can be safely ignored.

thought as much.

No wonder most of the population want nothing to do with feminists or feminism.

The fact most women refuse to call themself a feminist says a lot.

A feminist is asked for an advert which is sexist against women. She posts something from decades ago. ha

It must be very depressing being you, tegetega.