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Original poster

Clinically dead Irishwoman being used as human incubator

322 replies

FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 21:18

I am on my phone so cannot link but I was reading an article about a pregnant Irish woman who is clinically dead being kept alive against her next of kins wishes. The Irish constitution gives equal right to life of both woman and foetus.

Very sad situation made a million times worse Sad .

OP posts:
Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 23:20

Yonic that is a valid point and where will it end?
If an organ donation card is not found the NOK will be asked and their decision is respected no matter who will die without the organs.

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YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 23:22

Disney, a kidney or heart from this woman could save a full legal person, maybe in their 20s, with babies of their own to have down the line.

Yet if the NOK had said no to that, in absence of knowing the woman's wishes either way, no one would question their decision.

Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 23:23

She either has not named a next of kin or named her parents. If the father of the foetus is not married to her and not named as next of kin then her parents are assumed to be.

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basgetti · 17/12/2014 23:23

Well I'll go against the grain, and say that I wouldn't want to be kept artificially alive to save my baby if I was only 14 weeks pregnant at the time. I wouldn't want to gestate a baby that I would never get to meet and raise, or who may not have a healthy outcome anyway. But just to reiterate they aren't keeping her alive out of respect for her wishes, they are doing it because an amendment to the law puts the foetus as equal in status to the mother. That is a law with potentially very scary consequences.

AuntieStella · 17/12/2014 23:23

FayKorgasm: that is no longer totally true in all home nations of UK, as Wales has introduced an 'opt out' rather than opt in system for donation.

YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 23:23

Either it's ok to use a dead person to give life to another against the wishes of their NOK, or it isn't, surely.

Karasea · 17/12/2014 23:24

Yeah it is grim. All of it. An unwanted baby being born of a dead mother probably prematurely and possibly unsuccessfully. Those who loved the woman unable to bury her and to mourn her passing.
No one should be able to decide this other than next of kin.
It is so much part of the mysoginistic judgements that have characterised Irish law.

And wound I want a grandchild? In this case no, I would have wanted my daughter to mother her child. I wouldn't want a foetus brought to term in the dead body of a person I loved. Life at any cost isn't a philosophy that values life.

YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 23:25

Stella, sonin wales, are organs taken even if the NOK object?

Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 23:25

Its a law that forces women who wish to terminate for medical reasons to travel.

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Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 23:26

Auntie its Ireland. Not part of the UK.

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AuntieStella · 17/12/2014 23:30

I know this case is in Irekand, that is why I have asked a couple of questions about Irish law on NOK (anyine know the answers to thise, btw?)

Comment about consent for organ donation was intended only to show that it is not necessarily a matter for NOK to decide, and the recent changes in the law in other parts of EU tend to remove (not strengthen) the role of NOK.

Karasea · 17/12/2014 23:30

Just read those saying they would want their baby to survive. I really would want my babies to survive too, my born existing babies. Fuck ten emotive langue though, this is a foetus at 14 weeks as this happened. The loss for this potential person is all to come in his or her future.

Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 23:33

I answered your NOK question at 23:23 Smile .

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snuffykins · 17/12/2014 23:40

The babies father has no say at all if he is not married to the mother in a case like this.
www.thejournal.ie/readme/unmarried-fathers-ireland-rights-high-court-order-withdraw-life-support-baby-boy-1267847-Jan2014/

AuntieStella · 17/12/2014 23:41

Fay, Thanks!

(don't know how I came to miss that) So it is possible that the woman's partner would have no say because he would be legally disqualified from so doing.

And yes, Yonic, the law provides for that to happen though in practice no-one would overrule objecting NOK, assuming NOK knew they could object. It only came into effect in Wales at the start of this month, so no-one has seen it in practice.

Goldmandra · 17/12/2014 23:45

She isn't being kept alive. She is dead. Certain bodily functions are continuing, not her life.

If there is any reason to believe that she would have wanted this baby to be given a chance, I believe they are doing the right thing.

If she carried a donor card, her heart, lungs, liver, kidneys and various other bits could be used to keep other people alive so why not all those organs in one place? Her body is no more her than all the donated organs would be.

I would have wanted my baby given the chance of life.

SoonToBeSix · 17/12/2014 23:48

How wonderful a life can be saved out of tragedy. The woman is not suffering, nor did she wish to terminate.

CattyCatCat · 17/12/2014 23:49

This is an extremely hard situation. If I was 'dead' and 16 weeks pregnant, you bet your ass I would be 100% behind that baby living. But who knows what the lady in question would have wanted.

Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 23:51

snuffya very sad case but that was a born baby not a foetus. Unmarried fathers do not have automatic rights in Ireland but this foetus is not born,not even viable. I named dh as NOK before he was dh in Ireland when I was pregnant with dc1.

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Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 23:57

Soon it is not wonderful,it will set a precedent. A very precarious one.

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YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 23:58

Cat, and others - if your DH had to visit your dead body at the hospital, and explain to your children that they couldn't bury mummy yet, not for five months to come, would you still want to?

PuffinsAreFictitious · 18/12/2014 00:00

The more I think of this, the more I dislike the idea behind it.

This woman's parents won't be able to bury their dead daughter, nor will a post mortem be able to be carried out while she is being kept 'alive' in order to incubate a baby. This situation could easily (and if they actually want to save the foetus has to) continue for another 12 to 16 weeks.

It's macabre.

And, no, if it was my daughter, I would want her to have all the dignity possible for her, to allow her to die peacefully and to be able to start mourning my precious child, without her turning into some sort of science experiment in a country where women's bodily autonomy isn't respected.

YonicSleighdriver · 18/12/2014 00:03

Gold, would you keep a six month old baby on life support for six months to grow a kidney big enough to be transplanted into a one year old?

Organ donation happens at the point of biological death. Incubation is different.

iniquity · 18/12/2014 00:03

You wouldn't tell the kids its a dead body would you though. You would say mummy is sleeping.
I don't know really with this situation. I don't see it any worse than organ donation

YonicSleighdriver · 18/12/2014 00:05

It's not termination, six. If she'd been killed outright by an accident, it would not have been termination.

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