Clinically dead Irishwoman being used as human incubator

[FayKorgasm]

I am on my phone so cannot link but I was reading an article about a pregnant Irish woman who is clinically dead being kept alive against her next of kins wishes. The Irish constitution gives equal right to life of both woman and foetus.

Very sad situation made a million times worse .

What a dreadful situation for all involved.

A few thoughts, as pp said this feels like life at any price. That's not ok, there is a time when the price is too high.

The chances for the baby are slim. Even more slim that it will have no effects from the manner of incubation. Add to that the trauma of discovering your mum died in 2014 but you were born in 2015, from your mother's dead body. I can't imagine how that could possibly be presented well!

Ultimately this child (should it survive) is going to be an experiment. one of my major concerns is that the body does not cope on life support long term once a person is dead. That is why organ donation has to happen quickly once the decision is made, not the dignity of the body but the fact that they become less viable the longer they are artificially sustained - yet these people think they can sustain a whole body at a level to sustain pregnancy for 5 months! It's just not possible so this whole thing is futile in any case. Which makes me wonder if it's more an experiment than anything else.

Tbh the more I think about it the more disgusted I am. The doctors know the liklihood of success is infinitesimal so that leads me to the feeling there is something to be gained from this - for them.

All those saying you would want your baby to survive, at what cost? This is so unknown, if your child survived but was so brain damaged they never got a chance? If they were so physically affected they lived their whole life in pain? Or were so emotionally damaged they hurt or hurt those around them? It's easy to look at this and think of a magazine spread future for a child given life but it's highly unlikely to be that. And you won't be there to help your child through any of it.

The doctors know the liklihood of success is infinitesimal so that leads me to the feeling there is something to be gained from this - for them.

Like what? The golden opportunity to be forced into such a difficult dilemma? As far as we know, this situation hasn't arisen in the past. As the law is written, how are doctors meant to decide what to do? Refer to something other than the law, like what people on the Internet reckon?

This isn't about a termination though, this is about a presumably wanted dc.

We don't know that.

The potential grandparents do not seem to want it, we have no idea if the mother was booked on a flight to terminate.

We have no idea if her pregnancy was the result of rape.

And surely the priority here should be the woman and her parents. She is not being kept alive because she has any chance of life, she is not being kept alive because of her parent's wishes.

The doctors know the liklihood of success is infinitesimal so that leads me to the feeling there is something to be gained from this - for them.

No there isn't, but if they obey the parents' wishes they could be sent to jail for murder.

The problem is Irish law that makes women who are pregnant second class citizens to their first class citizen foetus.

"why organ donation has to happen quickly once the decision is made, not the dignity of the body but the fact that they become less viable the longer they are artificially sustained - yet these people think they can sustain a whole body at a level to sustain pregnancy for 5 months!"

Yy TooMuch.

Everyone saying, "well, I would want this" - my understanding is that Irish law, as it stands, would do this even if the woman had left explicit wishes not to do so.

Presumably if the same thing happened to a woman in Ireland but she didn't know she was pregnant they would treat in the same way? In which case this has nothing to do with whether the woman wanted the baby or not. The treatment would happen regardless

Yes, I think this point is being missed because of the nature of the law in Ireland. If there is a chance of the foetus surviving, even if its solely on the basis of the presence of a foetal heartbeat and no certainty as to the likelihood of a successful outcome (viability, health of the child etc) i think the doctors hands are tied.

I find this vile and horrific - that a foetus has more rights than a dead woman. She's just an incubator, whatever she personally might have 'wanted' she (or her family) has no rights at all.

It's not fair to describe this situation as an experiment conducted by the medical team. They believe they have no other option under irish law as it stands although they are seeking legal advice according to reports this morning.

Yes I don't think te doctor's have much choice here

But the points about te baby being "wanted" are specious. Irish law doesn't give a shit about whether the woman wants the baby she is carrying or not. She WILL carry it regardless

Very similar case in England
This is a very interesting article about an extremely similar case. The woman was advised not to become pregnant, she did against medical advise. The outcome was not good for her but the family have a healthy grandson now

It's disgusting treatment of the woman. I could understand if she was a few weeks off full term but to keep a corpse functioning for months is shameful.

This. No way will they be able to keep that pregnancy going to a safe conclusion without some medical intervention, the mothers body would deteriorate. Therefore it is no better than experimentation and to me verges on Mendel-esque behaviour.

Let the poor girl rest in peace and her family have some start of the already terrible grieving process. The mental anguish they must be going through is unimaginable.

Just listening to the radio. I don't know if it was mentioned for sure above but she is a young woman mid to latd twenties with two children already. Very sad.

School its not about foetal survival but about a foetal heartbeat. Presence of a heartbeat ties their hands. If there is diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormalities a pregnant woman still has to travel to have an abortion if she choses because of the presence of a heartbeat.

Life should not mean life at any cost. I know Ireland has a long history of despicable and disgusting treatment of women but this just seems a step too far.

if she has 2 children already then even more reason to not prolong this awful situation.

If they DID keep the baby alive, the poor family might have a terribly handicapped baby to care for, no mother and 2 children who resent their sibling.

I agree with the OP here. They have crossed the line between honouring God and playing God.

Given where she lived, it is a bit of a reach to say this was probably a wanted pregnancy, since her ability to do anything about an unwanted pregnancy would be limited.

I just can't get my head round this. I'm trying to imagine my husband sat next to my corpse for months on end while Drs battled to stop me degenerating so a fetus could live. It would never happen. It would be utter torture for DH and my family.

The linked article says she is a mother of two, so not exactly a 'girl'

It does not say that her parents are NOK. Are Irish Mnetters aware of more reporting? The father may be her NOK and he might disagree with the parents.

Her side of the story isn't really told. There are posts in this thread speculating that she was unhappy, seeking a termination or had conceived as the result of rape.

Unless there is other reporting giving any weight to any of those scenarios, it is just as valid to postulate that it was an ordinary pg with a much wanted baby. Indeed, if she had said at any stage before her death 'save my baby' why should her parents be allowed to overturn that? Neither body is theirs.

There's no more information here yet. Very personal event though, not sure how much more is really appropriate?

EdithW, I think FayeK was referring to other women's stories that have dominated the Irish news over the last year: a raped asylum-seeker who was denied travel to the UK and delivered of her baby at 23 weeks despite her claim that she was suicidal; a woman who died of septicaemia while mis carrying her 14 week old foetus because the baby's heartbeat was still detectable and doctors could not legally intervene - separate stories but they all arise from legislation that protects mother and child equally even where the prognosis for the mother is poor and regardless of the maturity of the foetus.

Going by a previous case in Ireland where an abortion was refused, even though a miscarraige was in progress, all that had to be present was a foetal heartbeat for the medical staff to refuse to intervene. This could be the case here, in that the child may have suffered as a result of the event that killed its mother, but as it is technically still alive the mother must be kept on life support

But they havent refused to intervene in this case- they have actively intervened by artificially sustaining organ function after death in an attempt to bring a 14 week gestated foetus to viability.

So first instance- refuse to intervene to save a a woman despite foetus loss 100% guaranteed anyway.

Second instance- actively intervene after woman's death for possibility of living but premature (it will be) baby with multiple health and developmental issues and no mother to care for it.

That is fucked up!

And the layering ironies that the Irish care system is fucking awfuk because the government that seeks to limit the freedom of women and to protect the foetus at all costs has never invested in the care of its most vulnerable children.
And if this possibly damaged baby ends up in the system it's life chances are statistically very poor.

It is on the news here in Ireland that her parents are indeed her next of kin.

Isn't it more likely that they did everything that they could for the woman, and the result was that she was in her current situation. Where normally they would remove care and allow her to pass away, they now can't because of the baby? So they weren't actively trying to save the baby when they treated her, but when it became apparent she wouldn't recover, they can't withdraw treatment because of the fetus' right to life?

Apocalypse, like what happens when a body is used to incubate a baby. How successfully a body can be maintained long term. How to hold off organ failure. All things that could never be experimented with unless under the guise of doing good.

People on the Internet are people with thoughts and opinions that are valid. Certainly not over a personal decision but on a medical one where the action is highly questionable. Just like a survey, petition, protest or anything else. Just because they are on the Internet they don't become invalid.

I do agree that the Dr's are in a position of murdering the child under irish law though so I can see why it is difficult for them. I can't imagine they'll get much help in court though.

School its not about foetal survival but about a foetal heartbeat. Presence of a heartbeat ties their hands. If there is diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormalities a pregnant woman still has to travel to have an abortion if she choses because of the presence of a heartbeat

I know FayKorgasm it's exactly what I said in my earlier posts. I'm irish myself, I know what the legal position in Ireland is and to me it's terrible that they can't even take into account the long term chances for the foetus. They can't do anything else in the presence of a foetal heartbeat but prolong the life support.

whyyougottabesorude I don't think I made my point clear there. By refuse to intervene I really should have said cannot intervene to end the treatment of the mother as it would result in the death of the foetus too which would be against the law currently.