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Original poster

Clinically dead Irishwoman being used as human incubator

322 replies

FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 21:18

I am on my phone so cannot link but I was reading an article about a pregnant Irish woman who is clinically dead being kept alive against her next of kins wishes. The Irish constitution gives equal right to life of both woman and foetus.

Very sad situation made a million times worse Sad .

OP posts:
PossumPoo · 17/12/2014 22:16

This isn't about a termination though, this is about a presumably wanted dc.

Abortion being illegal in Ireland, in my mind, has nothing to do with this.

LynetteScavo · 17/12/2014 22:16

This isn't the first case of this kind, is it?

I have a vague recollection of a similar case in Ireland, where the baby also eventually died.

There wont be a happy ending to this.

YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 22:29

The foetus is currently not viable. It is not saving a life to do this; that life is still being created.

If there was a family member gaining strength for a kidney operation in a few months' time, and this woman was a match, would it be right to keep her on life support until those months had passed?

What if it was for a stranger?

I think that would not be the decision of her family or of doctors in that case - without explicit instructions from her, her bodily functions would not be preserved, even though to cease to do so might result in or hasten the death of the potential recipient.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 17/12/2014 22:32

There is specific legislation enacted/being pushed through State legislatures in the US about this.

This is all about seeing the woman's body as a vessel for carrying a foetus. It has nothing to do with whether or not that foetus was wanted. It is entirely enmeshed with a legislative view that women's bodies can be decided on whatever their status, so is closely linked with abortion law.

The NHS would keep the mother 'alive' in this case, if it was what the family wanted.

Agree with Lynette... there won't be any happy endings here.

AuntieStella · 17/12/2014 22:38

I'm guessing that, as the parents are legal NOK in Ireland, the woman is unmarried.

Anyone know if the unborn baby's father would get any legal say in this under Irish law? Or can his wishes (or anything he says about her wishes) not considered as he is not legal NOK?

SkudSikker · 17/12/2014 22:43

I'm very pro-life, but after she's died, I agree with the poster who says she has nothing more to lose, so I don't think it's dreadful to force her to go through with a pregnancy as she isn't going through it if she's dead.

furcoatbigknickers · 17/12/2014 22:48

I think it is only right to give the baby a dighting chance.

MarjorieMelon · 17/12/2014 22:53

The next of kin are not the decision makers in my opinion. The mother would normally make the decision whether she wants to continue with the pregnancy and as she is not able to make that choice every effort should be made to save the life of the unborn child.

Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 22:58

Her body is not her foetus body. The foetus needs her body to become viable. If we take the right away from NOK and talk about a wanted pregnancy which we don't know if this was,for all we know she was getting ready to travel, who is going to consent to antenatal care? Vaginal exams? Blood tests? The woman who is dead? Or should we give doctors free reign over dead women?

OP posts:
Beangarda · 17/12/2014 22:59

Puffins is correct. And I think this appalling situation needs to be seen in the context of the Irish state's well-established fetishisation of the value of the life of the unborn at the expense of the wishes and bodily autonomy of the pregnant woman.

LittleBlueHermit · 17/12/2014 23:02

So she was only 14 weeks pregnant when pronounced clinically dead? And there's no guarantee that using her body as an incubator for five months will result in a healthy baby?

I think it can only be justified if the woman was very close to term and the father of the baby requests it. Even then, the idea makes me deeply uncomfortable.

There were two cases earlier this year:
abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2014/02/12/brain-dead-and-pregnant-why-one-baby-was-born-and-one-wasnt/

In one case (Canada), the woman was five mobths pregnant, and her husband (successfully) fought to keep her on life support until the baby could be delivered. In the other case (Texas), she was 14 weeks pregnant, the husband wanted life support switched off in accordance with her previously stated wishes, and the hospital refused. A court eventually overruled the hospital.

Floggingmolly · 17/12/2014 23:03

In her parents place; if you had tragically lost your daughter, and there was a chance of having a grandchild even after your child's death, why wouldn't you take it??

Floundering · 17/12/2014 23:04

if the baby were almost term, then it would be different but the woman is clinically dead, if nature were left to take its course they would both die as the baby is so young. tragic case but I could not let my daughter be kept alive for so long as an incubator.

BertieBotts · 17/12/2014 23:10

My initial reaction to this is that it's disturbing, but that's a gut feel. Will be interested to see what others have to say, very good points made so far. I am especially chilled by the post wondering about the effect on the foetus not being able to hear the mother's heartbeat and other usual things - for example, we know that babies pick up certain parts (rhythms and tones) of language in the womb - newborn babies will gravitate towards their mother's voice, but also towards unrelated voices speaking their language rather than a language which is very different, e.g. English vs Chinese. We don't know how important this is to language development because all pregnant mothers are surrounded by language. Additionally it is thought that unborn babies get tastes of the mother's diet through amniotic fluid, acclimatising them to the tastes of their culture. This baby won't. And live women move around, walk, run, dance. We don't know what the effects might be on a baby who exists in a still container.

I feel this is a medical experiment, not a courtesy. The foetus is not viable, so it's no more live than she is yet.

YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 23:10

"In her parents place; if you had tragically lost your daughter, and there was a chance of having a grandchild even after your child's death, why wouldn't you take it??"

Because you want to mourn your daughter, the human being who you knew.

I would rather next of kin took this decision than doctors, if it is between the two.

Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 23:11

Flogging I know if my child were dead and only being kept alive to achieve viability of a foetus I would fight for her dignity in death. Not because I do not love my daughter and any children she may have but because she deserves respect and a right to her body even in death.

OP posts:
basgetti · 17/12/2014 23:13

I think this is awful. This woman is still in early pregnancy, the foetus isn't viable. Her parents should be allowed to bury their daughter and start the grieving process. Instead they face months of their child being kept alive artificially, potentially having her body violated with invasive procedures and with no guarantee of a healthy outcome for the baby, purely because the law in Ireland puts the foetus as equal in status to their daughter.

Original poster
FayKorgasm · 17/12/2014 23:13

Bertie I agree it does feel like an experiment. Not saying it is but it feels like it.

OP posts:
DisneyDivaWoo · 17/12/2014 23:14

I. don't know how I feel about this article. I'm 16 weeks pregnant myself and if I was in this situation I would 100% want my baby to live however do we really know what the woman would want? Will this lead to more doctors being able to do similar things in Ireland? Sad It's a sad story and if the pregnancy continues I hope the baby survives. As for those saying it goes against nature and if nature took its course they would both die - couldn't we say the same about premature babies, babies with diseases and new mothers with illnesses?

ColdCottage · 17/12/2014 23:15

If this was me I'd want them to keep me going until my child was born. Why should we both die.

I am pro choice but this seems like a good thing to me. I'm sure if they could have asked the mother she would have wanted to protect her child if she wanted to have the baby.

YonicSleighdriver · 17/12/2014 23:15

If a person dies and there is an immediate match for their kidneys but not one for their heart, do we keep them alive for a few months to see if their heart can save someone else?

No, we don't. But why wouldn't we, by the same logic - it's not doing the dead person any harm.

We don't because we consider a person retains some rights to their bodies after death - to go to eternal rest whole.

Darquesse · 17/12/2014 23:18

I think this is a very tough situation and my bum has splinters from sitting on the fence but thinking of my own feelings I would definitely want the doctors to do anything it took to save my baby so I think they are doing the right thing.

Or at least I think I do! God I couldn't make that decision.

fanjobiscuits · 17/12/2014 23:18

If it was me I would have wanted my baby to survive. Who wouldn't?

AuntieStella · 17/12/2014 23:18

Can I ask again, under Irish law, is a non-marital partner a legal NOK?

This is about the woman and the NOK. The father of the baby is not mentioned. Is that because, under Irish law, his views have no locus whether on the scene or off it?

DisneyDivaWoo · 17/12/2014 23:19

But yonic we aren't talking about a kidney here we are talking about a baby Sad

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