Clinically dead Irishwoman being used as human incubator

[FayKorgasm]

I am on my phone so cannot link but I was reading an article about a pregnant Irish woman who is clinically dead being kept alive against her next of kins wishes. The Irish constitution gives equal right to life of both woman and foetus.

Very sad situation made a million times worse .

"Will they start testing women and girls for pregnancy when they need medical treatment?"

Don't know about Ireland, but this already happens (depending on nature of treatment) in England. Pregnancy testing before GA is routine, and doctors are reluctant to prescribe known teratogenic drugs without strong assurances of non-pregnancy.

They usually ask "could you be pregnant" don't they and take your word for it?

Do they test for pg before a GA? Without telling you? I've had a few GAs and don't recall ever being tested for pg, they've just asked whether it was possible.

& it's a different approach - in the UK it is so that people can make informed decisions (apart from the acne drugs there was an outrageous thread on here recently). Whereas over there it would be coming from a different place - that of potentially denying treatment to women if it had potential to harm the foetus.

I'm a bit disturbed to think that docs have been pg testing me without my consent TBH. If that's true it's a bit scandalous isn't it? I thought they were supposed to get consent for all sorts of tests.

Bit taken aback there!

They ask if you are pregnant, or could possibly be so. If there's any doubt, they will get you to POAS.

And yes, the big difference is the denial of treatment if it might injure or damage the foetus. Despite this going against the Church's teaching, which says that a pregnancy can end if it will save the mother's life, or enable her to access life-saving treatment.

The 8th has to go. This and the Savita Halappanavar case show why bestowing 'personhood' onto an unborn foetus is dangerous and, loath though I am to say it, stupid.

They ask you to do an actual test. You can refuse, just as you can for any procedure. It's always been a urine test for me (various hospitals, 1990s onwards) so they aren't doing it without co-operation.

It might not be uniform policy for every region, nor required for every procedure or drug (verbal assurance may or may not be considered sufficient). But establishing whether or not PG by test is already a part of normal practice in England.

I assume you're asking why the next of kin could be overruled.

Yes that is what i am asking. If this woman hadnt been pregnant her life support would have been switched off. Her NOK would have made that decision, along with doctors' support. Why do their rights disappear when she is pregnant? Even if her partner was her husband, he would be her NOK and the potential NOK of the foetus which had no chance of survival without her body. (And very little even with it being artificially maintained) so why did this have to go to the court for a ruling? The whole thing is wrong and i hope this sets the ball rolling for. Change to the law in Ireland.

It's such a relief that the court has given a sensible ruling, that family will now be able to lay their loved one to rest and start grieving.

Re the pregnancy test I remember a thread on here about it and they seem to do it automatically now even if you tell them you're not pregnant. Because you might be mistaken or lying and sue them later on for damaging your fetus which you didn't tell them about. Apparently. (That's UK btw, don't know about Ireland.)

In this instance, I don't think the NOK would have been allowed to keep her alive if she was not pregnant because there was no doubt about the outcome.

RIP to her

Just trying to remember if I gave them a sample any of the recent times basil

Don't think I did.

Can it be legal to perform pregnancy tests without consent? What happens if it's positive? I'm really incredibly shocked TBH.

A NICE guideline thingy from 2010 says consent should be obtained.

Honestly I'm really taken aback.

So all the times they ask for wee and say they're testing for sugar at eg a smear are they testing for pg too and not telling you? Or not?

I just don't remember giving a sample before GAs. Not to say that I didn't, I just don't remember. None have ever said they are going to perform a pg test.

I'm genuinely really taken aback. It feels really wrong that they would do that.

I think they tell you don't they?

Can't remember what happened last time I was in hospital

Going back a few years, HIV tests were done routinely on certain blood samples, eg pregnant women, without the knowledge of the person and if the results were positive, the person wasn't always informed.

Usually when giving a sample during a smear it is for doing a dipstick test and the urine is thrown away in your presence.

The guidelines for HIV testing have changed though, so it's no longer applicable.

There was a lot of hooha and complication around HIV tests and whether they could be done without the patient's knowledge etc IIRC, it was all a big ethical thing for a while IIRC. Going back a while here.

Pregnancy tests though I had no idea they were testing people without their knowledge or consent and I find that appalling and don't think it should be allowed. If it's happening.

Anyway I guess the upshot of this is they may already be testing females in Ireland for pregnancy and then proceeding (or not proceeding) with their treatment accordingly.

I'm not sure it's without knowledge, I think they ask you. But I can't quite remember, there was a big thread about it in MN where loads of people said it's quite normal now to get automatically tested for pregnancy just before an op or an x ray, even where you tell them that there's absolutely no chance you could be pregnant.

That would be thorny ethically.

If you do a pg test on every woman before every treatment, and then deny them treatment on the basis of a +ve test they were neither aware of nor consented to, then you would be on really shaky ground. I assume this would be the case in Ireland too, regardless of the 8th.

Using knowledge gained from testing done without the person's knowledge or consent to withhold treatment would be an abomination. To get around this, a doctor would have to tell you that she would refuse treatment without conclusive proof of no pregnancy.

As long as they are being open with that it's fine by me. HCPs and patients ought to have full information so that they can make informed decisions. If a woman says she can't be pregnant and they are dubious, or won't answer questions or something then I guess signing some kind of waiver is in order. It's on the consent form for some procedures I think....

It's the idea of them routinely testing women and girls without their knowledge or permission that gives me the heeby jeebies.

I've recently had surgery in Ireland with general anaesthetic. I don't believe they asked me if I was, or could be pregnant, but if they did they certainly didn't make me POAS to prove I wasn't. I'm of childbearing age and had a two year old at the time so would have been an ideal candidate if that was the policy, it definitely wasn't applied in my case anyway.

Do they test for pg before a GA? Without telling you? I've had a few GAs and don't recall ever being tested for pg, they've just asked whether it was possible.

I had to POAS for a GA this year, I'm not sexually active, I have not been for a number of years (quite honestly I'd like the chance).

I was quite irritated but I wanted the op and couldn't be arsed to argue, they were taking a routine urine sample anyway.

There is also an interesting argument about consent to a test.

Pregnancy can skew results in all sorts of ways in blood tests and urine samples. So if you do a dip stick and it shows some sugar do you want a HCP to tell you? Do you want them to consider whether this could be a result of pregnancy?

There's a fairly interesting argument to be had around informed consent for any but the most simple medical procedures. Even around some simple ones. This probably ins't the place to go into that though....