Is the constant misinterpretation of Feminism ignorance or wilful misunderstanding?

[messyisthenewtidy]

The other day at work I had a book about feminism on my desk and my colleague jokingly said "oh gawd, you're not going all feminist on us are you messy?!" I replied that I'd always been a feminist and proud of it and they looked at me all like I was a bit odd.

It made me think that all my life feminism has been understood in our common language as a bad thing. Everywhere: in popular films to newspapers etc. From women saying "I'm not a feminist but..." to the common phrase "I believe in equality but feminism has gone too far" to the instances in my life where men, upon finding out I was a feminist, have gone out of their way to bait me and tell me why feminism is really a form of female supremacy.

I suppose my question is: How did this happen? And the people who misunderstand feminism - are they just being ignorant of what it really is or are they wilfully misunderstanding in a conscious attempt to dismiss it?

Ah. Well, my struggle is with the interpretation of events. I don't always agree with it. I mean, feminism doesn't have a monopoly on the truth, does it? It comes from fallible human beings, after all. If it was right about every single aspect of everything, it would be a remarkable and unique political movement.

I don't think it's wrong to ask whether there couldn't be a better explanation sometimes. Do you?

I'd refer you to the very premise of this thread, and the dialogue between Messy and her colleague. There was the automatic assumption that said colleague must be male. That, to me suggests a fixed mindset for starters. Even Messy explicitly pointing out that the colleague was female did not register. Again, a rigid mindset that anything derogatory, even in jest, had to have male origins.

I don't like ideologies that know the answer before they even understand the question.

According to Flora, I am just exercising my privilege, however or whatever I post

Nope. You have been posting in an entitled manner. I'm sure you must have some capability to post in a different way but you haven't shown it so far on this thread. In fact, most of your posts I've noticed have been you attempting to point out flaws in feminism. You've said yourself that you've been harping on about your point about the OP. No-one seems particularly interested in your point but you won't stop going on about it and you are critical that we are not very interested in your point. That is entitled behaviour.

and one exchange between two people represents the totality of feminism does it?

I propose you suffer preconceptions also.

"There was the automatic assumption that said colleague must be male. That, to me suggests a fixed mindset for starters. Even Messy explicitly pointing out that the colleague was female did not register. Again, a rigid mindset that anything derogatory, even in jest, had to have male origins."

Or it could just be a mistake/misreading, don'tcha think?

Flora slarti I am expressing how little sympathy I have for your bleating about how feminists make you infuriated or offended. Was I not clear?

Lol, I don't like the phrase, no, and I've explained why, but I don't generally get infuriated or offended by feminists. Not sure why anyone would, but maybe you're judging me by your own behaviour as something I've said has clearly infuriated you to the point of repeated childish baiting.

slarti you've said yourself you find "men as a class" infuriating and offensive. I'm not infuriated by you, I see men being infuriated and offended by feminism all the time. Just as with you, I have no sympathy for them.

HTH

So, um, in the end, it seems to come down to exercise of privilege and willful misunderstanding then. Another conundrum sorted.

Flora I'm not offended by feminism. Not actually sure why you keep telling me what I think. Bit odd.

Slarti - you described the term "men as a class" as infuriating in your post of 20.09 on 22/11/2014, and as offensive in your post at 21.21 on 23/11/2014. Which are exactly the words FloraFox attributed to you.

Erm, because you said what you think? You said the term "men as a class" is infuriating, clumsy and offensive. Naming and analysing the behaviour of "men as a class" is at the core of feminism.

Surely which class label is appropriate depends on the subject under discussion? If you're talking about testicular cancer, "men" is a very relevant class to discuss. If we're talking about rape, I would find it pretty offensive to regard "men as a class" as the problem - the vast majority of men are not potential rapists. The class you're looking for there is "sex attackers". It's this sort of mis-classification that leads to silliness like parents not feeling comfortable with male nursery workers.

catkind I'm not surprised you are aligned with slarti in finding class analysis offensive since you don't agree with feminist analysis on a class basis, by which I mean women and men. "Sex attackers" is not a class.

Speverend I said I find the phrase offensive. Flora said I find "feminism" offensive. "Exactly the words Florafox attributed to you" is just plainly false isn't it, so why say it?

I don't find feminism offensive. What I do find offensive is having my own account of my position repeatedly dismissed and being told what I think.

Analysis of men as a class is core to feminism. Women naming and analysing their experience is core to feminism. Women giving a fuck whether you find anything offensive - not core to feminism.

I don't remember asking you to give a fuck flora. Again I'm a bit stumped as to why you felt the need to tell me this. Do people often give a fuck abut you not giving a fuck?

Oh, and equality is core to feminism imo.

slarti it rather appears that you do care since you keep going on about it.

Whether equality is core to feminism is a whole other subject. Many feminists seek liberation from oppression and male domination and don't see that as the same as equality within a patriarchal construct. Not that that has anything to do with you moaning about feminists using terms you find offensive.

You seem to be under the illusion that you get to decide who can post what and under what circumstances. I think you just need to accept that some people hold different opinions to you and getting worked up and aggressive doesn't achieve anything.

Back to those different brands of feminism. Most self-identifying feminists I know define feminism as a belief in gender equality.

You can offend as many people as you like, but then you don't get to tell us we're willfully misunderstanding when we decline to sign up for feminism. Or that we don't care about equality, or that we don't care about rape. I can't believe someone actually said that

Oh and for the sexists among you, I'm female. Wouldn't like you to think this discussion was lining up along gender lines. Someone might over-generalise.

Slarti: I said I find the phrase offensive. Flora said I find "feminism" offensive. "Exactly the words Florafox attributed to you" is just plainly false isn't it, so why say it?

You said feminism is about equality. You acknowledged that we do not currently have equality between sexes (your post on 23-Nov-14 at 21:21:10). How can you assert that there is inequality between two groups if you don't accept the groups as separate in order to consider whether or not they are equal? You can't - so even your definition of feminism implies the existence of "men as a class". So finding the phrase "men as a class" to be offensive would seem equivalent to finding feminism offensive (unless you mean that something like "men as a group" should be used instead of "men as a class", in the same sense that we talk about "black people" rather than using racist epithets).

Of course there are sub-classes of men and women that also exhibit inequality between themselves (ethnic groups, for example). I believe the concept is referred to as intersectionality. But if you are saying that these sub-classifications are more significant than the male/female classification then you're talking about anti-racism or improved social mobility or something of that nature. Which is fine and worthy, but isn't feminism.

Either you accept that there are meaningful differences between men's experiences and women's experiences (and hence that men and women can be considered as separate classes), or you say that there is no meaningful difference (and hence that men and women have equality, all other social factors being equal). The former case you find offensive; the latter you accept is not true.

slarti you are free to post what you want and I've never said otherwise. I'm free to tell you you're wrong / I don't give a fuck what you think / etc. I haven't said anything to the contrary, although I've made it clear I don't give a fuck about your feelings (not actually the same thing as saying what you can and can't post).

speverend (great name) has it when it comes to the particulars.

catkind equality is shorthand. There's more to it than that.

I see I'm still being told what I think. I'm perfectly capable of knowing my own mind so I'd respectfully request that other people accept that. Has anyone ever coined the term "femsplaining"? The constant "right, let me tell you what you really mean" is getting tedious.

And really flora, nobody gives a fuck that you don't give a fuck. Nobody posts for your benefit or approval. Perhaps it's time to get over yourself.