Is the constant misinterpretation of Feminism ignorance or wilful misunderstanding?

[messyisthenewtidy]

The other day at work I had a book about feminism on my desk and my colleague jokingly said "oh gawd, you're not going all feminist on us are you messy?!" I replied that I'd always been a feminist and proud of it and they looked at me all like I was a bit odd.

It made me think that all my life feminism has been understood in our common language as a bad thing. Everywhere: in popular films to newspapers etc. From women saying "I'm not a feminist but..." to the common phrase "I believe in equality but feminism has gone too far" to the instances in my life where men, upon finding out I was a feminist, have gone out of their way to bait me and tell me why feminism is really a form of female supremacy.

I suppose my question is: How did this happen? And the people who misunderstand feminism - are they just being ignorant of what it really is or are they wilfully misunderstanding in a conscious attempt to dismiss it?

Slarti wrote - "I oppose and would not engage in any sort of violence against women or anything similar. It's on that basis that I find "men as a class" to be one of the single most infuriating phrases I've ever come across."

The feminist use of "men as a class", or its unpopular shorthand form "men", is usually misinterpreted/misunderstood to mean "all men".

On behalf of men (presumably all men?), some people object to the concept of "men as a class", because men are not all the same. The objectors think it's unacceptable to use "men as a class" in feminist analysis of two classes: "men as a class" at the top, and "women as a class" at the bottom (the gender hierarchy).

A consequence of insisting that "men" is not a gender class, because there are differences between individual men, is that this view ultimately contributes to the illusion that men and women already have equal gender status. (I think this illusion of equality is harmful to women and girls).

Refusal to accept that men are a class, therefore claiming that men and women are already equal, is a tactic often used by people, who want to spread their belief that feminism is unreasonable, unfair, obsolete or has "gone too far".

By the way, where did the idea that all things in every class or group have to be identical, originate?

My understanding is that the fundamental feature of a class or group is that its members are similar, not necessarily identical. The identical part is only an optional subset of being similar.

Flora: Oh dear. Poor you. From all the inequity that has occurred as a result of male violence against women, this is the worst phrase yiu have come across? Poor, poor you.

And your baiting remarks are meant to achieve what, exactly?

vesuvia

You've created a position and attributed it to me (unfairly so, I would say). I said I support equality, I didn't claim it has already been achieved. I don't reject the phrase "men as a class" because I want to perpetuate an illusion that there are no inequalities between the sexes (if that were true then I wouldn't support equality, would I), I reject it because it seems like a clumsy and offensive way to address the issue.

Of course you don't have to accept that some men feel like that, and you don't have to care about it even if you accept that they do, but then that could well be part of the problem in the OP.

Great post, Buffy.

slarti I am expressing how little sympathy I have for your bleating about how feminists make you infuriated or offended. Was I not clear?

Is the constant misinterpretation of Feminism ignorance or wilful misunderstanding?

What about the third option, as expressed in the recent discussions about why more women don't engage in FWR? (and I know I keep harping back to it, but I think it is relevant). Women lurk here, read here, follow the arguments here, and simply don't agree with the interpretations that feminism provides. Are feminists wilfully misunderstanding this?

Yes you do keep harping on your point, nojacket but you're not really in much of a position to speak for women who don't engage in FWR, are you? It's not so much a question of misunderstanding your point, more like not caring about it.

Not happy - baffled would be more accurate. They raised a lot of points that I struggle with within feminism, but being a man, my viewpoint has less validity. That is not a complaint, that is just how it is within FwR, and I understand that.

The OP is a case in point. There are apparently only two possible reasons anyone could disagree. Any other explanation seems beneath consideration. So people get snippy.

I am not saying 'listen to me'. I am saying 'why not listen to them?'.

I am not saying 'listen to me'. I am saying 'why not listen to them?'

So much wrong with this. You're in no position to tell anyone here who they should listen to and you're in no position to purport to speak for women who are not posting here. Some women posted here with their view of FWR, I think Buffy summed up the key themes pretty well. Not everyone agrees with those views and it's not for you to make demands for how FWR posters want to post. It comes across as an entitlement that we should care about your views and change our behaviour. You know that isn't going to end well, right?

Did you see the question mark in my quotation marks, Flora? I asked a question. I was not telling anyone to do anything. I was asking 'why not...?'
If I had put 'listen to them!' then you might have a point.

Did you wilfully ignore the question mark?

Was it a rhetorical question nojacket or were you expecting women to justify to you why they post on FWR in a particular way?

Wriggle wriggle, Flora.

Buffy, I'm not here to troll, to belittle or to silence. We are not going to agree here. Best if I butt out, I think. This is an impossible medium to convince anyone of true intentions, so I won't try.

Not wriggling nojacket. I assumed it was a rhetorical question and since you've said it isn't, that is still entitled behaviour, just of a different sort. To be clear, it's really not on for you to try to speak on behalf of a group of women to another group of women. Regardless of your intentions, you don't seem to be reflecting on the impact of your contribution, even after Buffy has made the effort to explain it to you, with more patience than I could muster.

You are paying lip service to the notion that you understand why your viewpoint about how feminists should do feminism but you say "that is just how it is within FwR" which suggests you think this is a foible peculiar to this board rather than a concept you should reflect on and take seriously. Your posts generally don't paint the impression that you have any real understanding of why men shouldn't tell women how to do feminism nor of how men can participate in feminist discussion without acting in an entitled manner.

Slarti wrote - "You've created a position and attributed it to me (unfairly so, I would say). I said I support equality, I didn't claim it has already been achieved."

I was using the quote only as a starting point for my general point. I didn't say that you, Slarti, think that equality has already been achieved. If I was able to edit my post, I would remove that quote.

Just addressing the chaps whom have posted lately, in a discourse about ideas and concepts the idea has validity when expressed not the person. You might have a moment of inspired genius one day and an epic brain fart the next. Listening and attempting to understand more helps guard against the latter...

Buffy, I am surprised. I decided to stop contributing because we were at an impasse. I did not want to be seen as just another bloke looking to win an argument, and going round and round, repeating myself over and over. You seem to regard this as some sort of game - 'I made a better move - I win!'

According to Flora, I am just exercising my privilege, however or whatever I post. So really, what is the point? If nobody will consider the proposal that in answer to the OP, there are more than two possibilities, then there is nothing more to say.

Dervel, re in a discourse about ideas and concepts the idea has validity when expressed not the person. Sorry mate, but I don't follow.

nojacket you said you struggled with some feminist points, do you think that is grounds for further study into the background of feminism and the paradigm around which such points are made? Or are you happy enough with your current perspective as is?