Feminist Pub 14: The Bluestocking, a place for feminist chat and feminists to chat

[YonicScrewdriver]

Welcome!

This is the 14th incarnation of the Pub and is meant as a place to drop by with random thoughts and meandering chats, on feminist or other related themes. Anything you want to mull over but not necessarily start a thread about. Alternatively, flop onto the chaise lounges with some

We have a pub goat, a feminist cannon for firing at crazy sexists and a variety of drinks and snacks. And stools/bar counters at female friendly heights. And a crèche in the back somewhere

Will link the last pub in the next post!

Exactly, Katee. This would be such a good learning opportunity for that boy, and I feel like his parents are trying to ruin him by fighting the school so much.

I only read the beginning of the thread. Does it go downhill?

Yes, and the "yeah but what can we do about these dinosaurs who make sexist comments?" Well, call them up on it - otherwise they and people around them think it's acceptable. And you know, they arrest dinosaurs too eg. Harris et al.

I jumped over briefly to the thread about a women's group at work and stopped myself from typing out my advice, which would be: don't join them, they are too often seen as 'that thing that needs to be done to keep women quiet' and I personally missed out on a big promotion thanks to one such group (I kid you not). So from now on, I stay away like the plague.

I had a huge rant about our "Women's Network". Basically, they have taken a description of something exclusionary that helps men to get ahead (networking over golf, whatever) and thought that simply by applying the name to a group of women in a room, they would help us to genuinely network in a way that would advance our careers. I called bullshit!

Also, they got someone in to give a talk on neuro-linguistic programming (aka snake oil and quackery). Why do women always get dumped with the woo? In an organisation where a lot of us have science PhDs, it's fair to say a number of us were underwhelmed.

Ooh Fibonacci, I am having an argument with myself about this at the moment, there is a women's thing that my work is offering sponsorship for, I am in two minds about applying as I feel like something needs to be done, but I don't know if it's actually going to make a difference. It is kind of like "let's give the women a few biscuits and a place to talk about how they have the potential to be leaders, and that will leave us men free to get on with doing the actual leading". A bit torn at the moment! The deadline is on Friday so I had better make a decision. I feel like I should throw myself in because if no one shows willing nothing will ever change. But I've shown willing before and all that happens is I get a reputation

I now believe that the only way to help is to succeed and pay it forward: find younger women to mentor and make sure that your teams are diverse. The women's groups, as you say, I found to be whitewashing of women's problems; they all ended up being 'well you women are not succeeding but it's because you are not doing the right things, let us throw some training at you to see if that will fix YOU'.

One of my colleagues posted this TED talk, basically saying "you know all that career advice you get given about coming across as assertive and confident without being ball-breaking? Well, guess what, it's bollocks. That's the minimum requirement for the job, the stuff that any candidate who's going to be taken seriously has to have. The stuff that actually gets you the job is the business stuff - knowing the financial details and the strategic plan. All this stuff about 'lean in' is just so much window dressing."

NB that's not to say there isn't a problem with institutionalised sexism - where a woman has all those business attributes and still isn't even looked at because she isn't a "jolly good chap." But the point is that's not the woman's fault for not being assertive or whatever enough, that's the institution's fault for judging her on not being "male" enough.

Katee What sort of "women's thing" is it? I would absolutely refused to go on anything that wants to sort you out because there's something wrong with you due to being a woman, but I would go on things that simply give women space because there are too many male fuckwits around. Though sometimes it's a fine line between the two ... For example, a fellowship for women which recognises that women face more barriers would be a good thing, while a "leadership for women - how to grow a willy" type thing would be terrible..

Our person-in-charge of equality initiatives is a man who does not see any sexism. What sexism? My friend who is a woman got promoted and promoted! > I don't even have any energy left to be angry.

Fibonacci I agree with the pay-it-forward approach. I find myself doing that these days.

Here is my proposed solution for any corporation that might be reading this and really wants to sort out their diversity problem: tell your managers that in five years time there will be diversity quotas, measurable as part of their performance review, and that if they want to be in a good place by them, they'd better start identifying and nurturing the pipeline of junior women in their organization, or start working on attracting them from the outside. They have five years to do this, so no excuses.

Yes LordC. It's hard to know from the website, but it seems to be more mentoring and networking with other women, not "how to bust balls". I'm a great ball buster, but it doesn't help me in my career.

Fibonacci you are absolutely right. My employer is very very vaguely thinking about those kind of senior managment targets but I doubt they will actually follow through. It's just one of those things that the think "hm that would be a nice idea". But turkeys don't vote for Christmas, whenever they mention it , it's met with vocal opposition. Why would anyone want change if change will leave them personally worse off, even if it's for the greater good?

I really like the 'paying it forward' idea Fibonacci, thank you.

"I'm a great ball buster, but it doesn't help me in my career." No. Assertive women are not regarded well. Pushover women are not regarded well. In fact, women are not regarded well. Women who performed femininity are regarded as incompetent. Women who don't perform femininity are regarded as unnatural and disliked. Women who are incompetent are not liked. Women who are competent are unfeminine and therefore unnatural and disliked.

That's what I say to all attempts at sending me to "leadership for women".

I certainly know who I would send for fucking training.

YY not training women to be leaders, training men to see women as leaders

Did I post my Swedish oncologist example on this thread? I know I brought it up again recently, but forget where. But it more or less matches fibonacci's strategy of what happens when quotas are expected

"not training women to be leaders, training men to see women as leaders"

I shall steal this, if you don't mind, Petula!

I raise at work recently that I see the two new male teachers getting much better mentoring than the new female teacher. One of the new male teachers was straight on it: he raised it as an issue at a meeting and suggested ways to make sure that all the new teachers got the same quality of mentoring. He also is really keen to get home at the end of the day as it is his duty to take care of his kid and do bed time etc and make sure his wife gets a break and some adult conversation with him. He also immediately suggested his wife for some work that was offered to him as she is currently a SAHM and wants to get back into work. They would potentially earn more if he did the work but he wanted to see his wife benefit even if it's at his own personal loss.

It strikes me that he's a genuinely nice guy and I'm very happy that he's teaching my daughter. I hope that his attitude starts to rub off on others. Where I work is pretty good but there is still a bit of a boys club among some of the staff, although they do get called on it as there is no shortage of female leadership figures.

I do think we need to rethink leadership a little to include people who are influential if not powerful. In my school there are a lot of women who provide strong daily role models and have daily contact with the students. By comparison the principal is a bit of a distant figure. In years to come our students will name women as the people who shaped them and inspired them. It's important to recognize that form of leadership as well as the people with the big salaries.

Good news: I just did some online shopping at at no point did the website demand a title from me. Usually I am please enough that they include "Ms" as an option, let alone dispense with the whole sorry business altogether.

Bad news: despite this victory for gender equality, I am very disappointed that I didn't get to use my shiny new title!!

I filled in an online form yesterday which asked me whether I preferred being addressed by my first name or by my title and surname (it was registering with an organisation who will need to email me, etc). Only if you ticked the title and surname box did it ask for one.

Quite neat, I thought.

Sorry you didn't get to use the Dr though. Can we call you Dr Annie, or does that make you sound a bit like a US agony aunt? Does it have to be Dr Lobeseder?

Just wait till you get people wanting you to tell them what's wrong with their sinuses when they see Dr in your title. Then get in a huff when you say you are not a medical doctor.

And isn't it only an honourary title for a medical doctor anyway. Or summat.

Historically, yes. But at least in the US, if a university calls it a doctorate, you're a doctor. There are all sorts of doctorates in the US that are not PhDs.

And the Italians have other conventions about professors and doctors ... (gleaned from watching Montalbano ...)

Interesting, thanks. I don't really know about this stuff, just have a friend who bleats on about it who I don't really listen to. I always felt short changed that, as a lawyer you don't get any letters after your name for your main post-grad qualification. Obviously you wouldn't use them, but still...