Feminism and disability

[BellaSolanum]

Wanted to start a conversation on how and where disability intersects with feminism.

For example, is disability seen or treated differently depending on which sex it affects?

Be interesting to note the differences between different types of disability, whether physical, mental, etc.

My own perspective is from the view of someone with a chronic pain condition, health issues relating to the reproductive system and a mental health condition.

I know both aspergers and age related health problems were mentioned in the Pub, and there seems to be a lot to explore there too.

One subject I'd like to explore is the idea that disabled women are seen as selfish for having children, while I don't recall men getting the same judgements. Is that one just me taking it personally (have been told I was wrong to have children) or is it part of a larger problem?

Thank you for starting the thread.

Interesting discussion.

I will come back to this when I finish my assignment that is due at midnight.

thanks for starting this thread. i have very little knowledge or understanding, so really interested to read what those who do have to say. it would not surprise me to learn that if non-disabled women are criticised for their choices, disabled women are criticised tenfold

bella i hope you don't mind me asking you question directly, but have you experienced doctors telling you (before or after diagnosis) that aspects of your condition(s) are just a "normal" part of being a woman?

Good luck for assignment Frau!

Oh yes, the reproductive side especially. Have suffered badlyt since my early teens and no doctor would do more than dismiss me until I was late 20's. Of course then it turns out I have PCOS, and I haven't been imagining the excruciating pain.

Yes. About to sleep but anything that can be a barrier to women is likely to also affect some people with disabilities. The concept of main childcarers having disabilities doesn't get considered most of the time, equally medical appts or disability benefits or care don't consider needs of people caring for children.
Pressure on women to look certain ways has greater impact if you physically look different or are unable to do certain aspects of grooming like eye makeup.

Personally I'm not sure disabled women get more criticism, more a mixture of patronisation, disbelief that they exist, and more danger of being unable to escape abusive environments, but those could all come with criticism.

Thanks for starting this. at being told it was wrong to have children.

I think another to note about feminism and disability is about how much it can be ignored/overlooked/discriminated against within the movement.

Bottomface writes about disability and feminism (and sometimes the ignorance within feminism on this matter).

I'm going to lurk on here, but I would like to make one observation. I have a physically disabled DS and I have perceived a reaction from other people that might say something about the way we sometimes think about men and women. I get the impression that people can view DS as a person and account for the disability separately and in a secondary manner. However, when people talk to me about disabled women - or if DS had been born a girl - it's almost as if the disability would be not only of greater consequence, but also part of who they are. There's also a difference in the 'pity' factor - not in a good way.

I'm not sure about this, just a perception as I say. And I may not have explained it well. Anyone?

Assignment done. It's crap, I want to re-write it, but it's in and done and I think hope I've done enough to pass.

I have a chronic condition. It can be managed, not cured. I had my children before I knew I had the condition. It is not immediately obvious when you look at me and I know I have been judged as being lazy, for example, when I am fatigued.

As far as reproductive health is concerned, the lack of decent options for appointments is disgraceful. Coil appointment with a 2 year old anyone? Hardly dignified or appropriate, but I had no other option. My then husband was away with work, I had no one to keep her.

Physical aspects of grooming - I rarely bother to do my legs. I cannot be arsed, and I will do my legs, pits and bits if and when men are expected to do the same. Until then, it's au naturel here.

You may all be surprised to learn that I challenge every single person who ever makes a value judgement on me based on my sex, my sexual orientation or indeed my disability in any area. I hate the word disability. I'm not a DIS anything.

Can't post coherently - brain is mush but I will watch and (I hope) learn.

I think I would have to count myself among that ignorant group scallops. I'll read that link tomorrow

Oh I am too Petula. We did have a couple of posters on here a couple of years ago who had fibromyalgia and they opened my eyes a lot to things I'd just not thought about. Certainly made me 'check my privilege' to coin an often used phrase.

Just coming in to listen. I'm hoping to work within the community when I eventually finish study and feel like my lack of real understanding about life with a disability isn't suited to working with a diverse community group.

Wow, this got silent quickly!

A few points to try to get it going again:

As a woman who is also a parent, I've made use of policies at work giving me maternity pay (easy) and the right to work part-time (easy to get the paperwork done, not so easy to get in practice). I've also ended up working flexibly to fit work round school hours (no complaints but has resulted in unsustainable late nights for me). So it's hard to push for reasonable adjustments for disability without being seen as a 'special snowflake' who just comes up with more and more excuses for not working effectively - buying some kit for a couple hundred quid was easy. Getting any ongoing support and dealing with a gormless finance team and trying to get colleagues or the whole organisation to change how they do things? Bloody impossible. And the accusation that I'm just wanting 'special treatment' and sorting stuff 'isn't our job' comes up yet again. If I had a wife to work part time and deal with all the school stuff, then I wouldn't appear nearly as 'difficult'.

Like many people with various disabilities, I could spend my entire life chasing various medical appts which might or might not be of any use to me. I have a limit of how much time I have, and being a woman with small children and a job, that time is even less. So mantras of "you really ought to see a consultant about xyz and get better" and suggestions that we're not really trying to get better. See also accusations to women about stuff being your own fault for being too passive/strident/bossy/not wanting equally paid jobs enough.

If I did decide to push for as much medical/social support as possible, it would be a full-time job and I'd therefore have to give up work and be a 'scrounger'. The line being pushed increasingly by the media in the last few years that only workers have any value as people is frankly terrifying to anyone who can't work, especially as more and more people are finding themselves in a Kafkaesque nightmare of benefits not being allowed, sanctions, zero support from social services, mental health support being cut, phone lines never answered, the CAB being too overloaded to help anyone who can't arrive an hour early for a walk-in clinic (again, discriminates against anyone having to do a school run). If you need support with caring for your children, that isn't available unless you don't have a partner who will be expected to give up work if necessary. There should be no such thing as a "young carer" - they only exist because society deems caring work as 'not real work' so it's OK to make under-age children do it rather than pay an adult at least minimum wage.

I'm active in a couple communities where disabled access is taken seriously - went to one event where feedback forms showed 50% of attendees considered themselves disabled - which makes it more of a shock going back to the rest of the world where the cluelessness never fails to amaze. Step-free access to venues including toilets shouldn't be too difficult where the buiding is new or adapted, but how often do people 'forget' to open the side door, or store stuff in the accessible loo, or just cock up the adaptations in the first place - walk down the street and see how many dropped kerbs have more than a 2 inch rise, how many shops have a step to get in, and how many pubs don't have accessible toilets or someone has shoved a table in the way. Can people ask questions about your event by email instead of a phone? Will people sit down to chat so that people don't have to stand up to talk, with enough lighting for lipreaders?

It's like sexism - once you start noticing these things, you can't stop.

to be fair, i think a lot of posters have said they are aware of their ignorance and are reluctant to fill the thread with that and put off the knowledgeable ones!

lots of interesting and infuriating stuff there notcitrus. i was thinking to myself on my way to work this morning that in the context of caring, care requirements may tie women with additional needs into abusive relationships. not just in a physical sense necessarily, which i'm sure happens, but also in terms of not being able to rely on adequate support if they leave the relationship. if women without disabilities are terrified of being destitute and unable to provide for their children if they leave an abusive relationship, i can only imagine it must be worse for a woman who is disabled

to be fair, i think a lot of posters have said they are aware of their ignorance and are reluctant to fill the thread with that and put off the knowledgeable ones!

That's my feeling, tbf. Happy to be educated by other posters though.

This is maybe feminism related but more for men really, but when I have noticed a man who is maybe less able than myself to get something or hold something (say in a shop) or to push heavy door open... I don't always help them. It's the same with older gentleman (more so actually because of the era they are from). I'm conscious of the way men don't want to be perceived as "weaker" than women so even though I could be useful there is a part of me that says helping them would be "emasculating" which is a bit shit really.

Sorry rambling a bit

A friend of mine is in a wheelchair and has major health issues. One of the biggest things that annoy her is when out with husband shop assistants will ignore her even when clothes shopping and talk to her husband as though she is not there. Not sure if men get the same issue so is it the chair or her sex or both?

Her son is autistic and although she had him before her problems started you do get people commenting on she shouldn't have brought up a child. There is an assumption that so many people make about her and her son without knowing the full story or all the issues. Think the problem is ignorance and it affects men and women equally. There has to be a willingness to listen and engage and most people just want to pretend that disabilities don't exist.

Good point Petula. Thing is, and channelling a disability adviser friend here, no-one is an expert on disability becauseit is so wide ranging and often complicated. So given that, I think what is needed is for way more people to get a basic level of usefulness: say 'listen to what someone says their needs are, don't assume, then take them seriously and don't make it their responsibility to make it happen', 'information is the best way to give access' - we know you can't magically make a 3-floor building step free, but things like publicising timetables as soon as possible, or distance to the step-free entrance (many people may prefer two steps to walking/wheeling a long way to avoid them). Assume in any group of adults at least one will have pain standing or walking for long, at least one will have some hearing problem, and likely one some will have allergies or other conditions. Some people wi have multiple issues. Many issues fluctuate - don't assume anyone is faking : they may well be trying to make light of it.

Being helpy - ie insisting on helping someone to make you feel better rather than listening to what they would prefer - isn't helpful. Eg grabbing someone to help them up can cause extreme pain or knock them off balance. A uni friend with a guide dog said he got grabbed and dragged across a street About once a week...

What have I missed for a general primer on disability? Admin staff are critical for making an organisation disability-friendly and should be valued more, and are more often women? :-)

I suspect there's a difference in socialization where men with obvious disabilities are expected to be noble and sexless or find a caring saintly wife, whereas women are infantilised more and expected to keep themselves safe from men - I recall there's a stark difference in the numbers of blind or wheelchair-using men versus women who get married, for example.

What else

this is very enlightening, thank you, and i think will be very relevant to my new job in a couple of weeks' time

Petula - yes, being trapped in an abusive or just neglectful relationship is a huge issue for many disabled people (I know of half a dozen, couple adults, couple student-age, couple of elderly parents of my friends) - inaccessible emergency housing or lack of support workers to help people escape active abuse is one problem, but the level of care expected from parents or spouses and even children can just be too much. In both cases I'd guess women are disproportionately affected because of general dv stats but also a number of conditions like chronic fatigue, arthritis, MS etc affecting women more.

Agree with sausage that both men and women want to pretend disability is rare and could never affect anyone they know as then it's too close for comfort. The "does he take sugar" syndrome affects men and women but I suspect the reaction when the wheelchair user objects may be different for men and women as classic deference to important-sounding men takes over.

I only used a wheelchair for about 6 months and managed to defeat most patronisation with a lot of pointing out "that's Dr Citrus, actually" in my best RP accent, and wearing a scary-looking Iron Maiden t-shirt as much as possible - so pulling on all the privelege I could! Quite a lot of the 'poor you' annoyance could have been because I was very pregnant.

Actually how I got treated when pregnant and when physically disabled were very similar - lots of contradictory advice that I'd be told off for not sticking to (eg be on bed rest while also 'needing' to travel to hospital appts and sitting in discomfort while waiting), and lip-service to accessibility that then didn't exist - my favourite was being told I wouldn't be able to use a birthing pool if I couldn't get in and out myself. I pointed at the hoist on the ceiling and said that's what the hoist was for, haven't staff been trained to use it - if not you'd better sort that in the next 3 months! They said "yes, but we've never actually had to use it and wouldn't like to!" In the end my partners and MW helped me in and out as it was quicker and as I've never used a hoist it looked scary!

Another big overlap with feminist issues is the idea of the Third Shift - if the Second Shift represents all the 'wifework' and housework that women typically do, then the third shift is all the extra admin and searching for suitable solutions that disabled people have to do - can't remember if the originator of the phrase included extra sleep time and being zonked from meds, but you get the idea.

This is why I think imposing any admin burden on disabled people to get adjustments made is unacceptable - im particular the tight deadlines DWP give when applying for disability benefits. You get 28 days (in practice often half that as letters don't arrive until two weeks after their date...) to provide around 5000 words of detailed medical information and copies of medical evidence, while of course dealing with your usual work, family, being ill, whatever. If you don't send it all back in 28 days you have to re-start your entire claim. DWP then faff about for a year or more before assessing said information!

that would be great Buffy! I know a number of women not getting diagnosed with Aspergers until middle age as it presents differently (also been suggested I might be one...) - family members do have it.

I'd appreciate any comments on what to add to my primer on disability/accessibility for all - I got co-opted onto work's disability group so trying to come up with max 1 side of A4 or 10 bullet points of usefulness.

Finished waiting around so won't be typing as much after this!

Sorry I started this and then vanished, looks like me and both kids have come down with a stomach bug.

"The concept of main childcarers having disabilities doesn't get considered most of the time, equally medical appts or disability benefits or care don't consider needs of people caring for children."

No, that's true IME. Partly I think because it's seen by some to be selfish of a disabled person to have children in the first place. Related question, I've seen a few times comments on how disabled women should have children taken away from them even if their partner is able bodied, but can't recall hearing the same for disabled men with children.

I'm also aware that I've been blamed for not constantly fighting for treatment, when I am so tired dealing with health problems and two children under 3 that I just run out of energy to fight with medical professionals too.

"Pressure on women to look certain ways has greater impact if you physically look different or are unable to do certain aspects of grooming like eye makeup."

That's something I've struggled with, I've had to stop wearing high heels (despite loving them) and often don't have the energy to do basic self grooming like brushing hair, let alone the whole makeup/hairstyling thing.

Am also aware that on the occasions I do push through and make the effort, usually in attempt to make myself feel better, I then face disbelief that I have problems at all.

It's interesting there that what is considered usually to be fairly basic/essential grooming for women in society is seen as excessive in someone disabled.

A very interesting topic. I used to teach children with autism, children and adults with severe to profound physical and intellectual disabilities and I did research with children with down syndrome. IMO, and this is purely based on my experience, the general attitude towards people with intellectual/social disabilities is horrendous, partly due to ignorance, partly due to fear, partly due to sheer arseholery and a need to lord it over someone "weaker" and partly due to a lack of voice. IME if someone is unable to express themselves and assert their own needs even kind caring people lose sight of their humanity. A small but pertinent example was committed, caring assistants who would walk up behind the chair of a girl who couldn't speak but could understand everything and just move her with no warning. It was incredibly rude, but I think because she didn't speak she almost became like a piece of furniture. When I mentioned it, they stopped doing it right away.
That voicelessness and having to convince people you have a legitimate complaint before you're even listened to are things central both to women's experience and the experience of people with disabilities I think. People with disabilities have a much tougher fight though.

Bottomface Has written some excellent stuff, definitely required reading when it comes to disability and feminism.