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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism and disability

72 replies

BellaSolanum · 02/11/2014 23:23

Wanted to start a conversation on how and where disability intersects with feminism.

For example, is disability seen or treated differently depending on which sex it affects?

Be interesting to note the differences between different types of disability, whether physical, mental, etc.

My own perspective is from the view of someone with a chronic pain condition, health issues relating to the reproductive system and a mental health condition.

I know both aspergers and age related health problems were mentioned in the Pub, and there seems to be a lot to explore there too.

One subject I'd like to explore is the idea that disabled women are seen as selfish for having children, while I don't recall men getting the same judgements. Is that one just me taking it personally (have been told I was wrong to have children) or is it part of a larger problem?

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BellaSolanum · 03/11/2014 16:50

"You may all be surprised to learn that I challenge every single person who ever makes a value judgement on me based on my sex, my sexual orientation or indeed my disability in any area. I hate the word disability. I'm not a DIS anything. "

Not surprised at all. x

I have issues with the word disabled too, but so far don;t like any of the alternatives I've seen either. And I guess for me my health problems mostly just feel like a collection of all the things I can no longer do, so I feel like I'm "dis" quite a lot :(

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PetulaGordino · 03/11/2014 16:50

how appalling re benefits. and thinking about the hoist, even if after that point they said they had been trained and you could use it, you've lost the trust that they can use it safely and care for you adequately in that situation

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 03/11/2014 16:51

Both myself and my partner have multiple disabilities. How our difference in treatment has been along several lines: gender, race, weight, type of disabilities, how the disabilities happened, and so on. There is a lot to untangle.

I am autistic, the 'treatment'/abuse for that caused PTSD and joint problems - even part of that was highly gendered (I wasn't diagnosed as a child, but a 'cure' for girls who was neuroatypical and unable to meet those social expectations was to be put into 'social' and active dance lessons for hours from a young age (I started at 3) I've learned wasn't an uncommon tactic in training autistic girls to be compliant and acceptable then, boys would be put into sports like my brother was to be trained to be acceptably aggressive). The type of dance/sports were put into was originally affected by the ethnicity our parents wanted to be seen as and then by the ethnicity others saw us as (I started in ballet and tap, would end up in hip hop and 'modern'/jazz). The overtraining caused joint damage and is likely related to the issue in my limbs that causes them to fall asleep while I'm walking.

As a child, I was often told not to have children, that having them was wrong, that getting a partner who wasn't just using me was not possible for me. I had a teacher when I was 11 (who knew I was at that point in a depression group) tell an entire class of boys not to date me, the only reason I can recall was because I was too disorganized. While my mother and sister could be openly sexual, I could not - the moment I admitted to kissing someone, I was a slut who was being used. The moment I went outside of heteronormative expectations that I wasn't even suppose to get let alone go beyond, I was being used and being a bad example. The being an example as a disabled person often came up for me.

My partner didn't become noticeably disabled until he was a teenager. He's neuroatypical and has damage to his lower spine and joints. He has had more medical attention due to the nature of his disabilities and he has far less history of medical abuse to stop him. Having been physically abused to 'teach me a lesson' by medical professionals and had my child's speech delay blamed on my accent (yes, this was said to me repeatedly, I have this in writing) I'm less likely to go seeking services. I take him to appointments as I fully believe and seen that I am treated better with his presence even when he seems more ill than I am.

He was never been told that having kids was wrong, but he has been told that his disabilities make him a bad father whereas I've been told not to have kids or not to have more kids (and been laughed at a desire to do so), but I've not yet had anyone say to me personally that they think it makes me a bad mother. I've had people yell in my face when my child's shoe has gone under my mobility scooter (as if shouting directions on a device they clearly didn't know would help) and people ask how I do it that really feels like why, and I've had adults pull their kids away from mine, but I've never had it said to me that my disabilities make me a bad mother. It seems more acceptable to imply or say 'why did you have these kids' to me even during times when my partner's disability has been more obvious and it seems acceptable to tell him that he's a bad father if he tries to care for the kids while disabled.

People presume he's faking or that it would all be solved by losing weight whereas no one say that I'm faking but that it's not as bad as someone else's and I just need to put a positive attitude on it - they agree its there but that I should be able to smile through it and be an example to others.

When my partner was looking for work, it was presumed he needed to toughen up whereas when I looked for new work after my third and wanted advice on doing it with disabilities that had escalated over that pregnancy, I had my qualifications (which are 'better' in degree, more generally accepted as his are very niche, and more up to date) mocked, that I should focus on putting my kids in nursery (when I had said my husband was their main carer and had been for years, they just laughed and said 'I guess he has some experience') and to do that so I can get 'me time' before going back to work.

People do like to pretend disability doesn't exist, especially among younger adults, and that is just a matter of toughening up men and making women more cheerful then all the complaints about accessibility will go away. As an autistic adult, people like to pretend to we don't exist yet and if we did we would all be horrible examples to autistic kids. All the autistic women I know at one time or another been told our autism isn't "real autism" and been prevented from connected to other autistic women who are 'a bad influence' and when we do, our interaction with them gets blamed for any 'wrong' behaviour. The idea of disabled women coming together to find answers from each other rather than 'the experts' really annoys some people and autistic women coming together to define autism for ourselves and not accepting the 'male brain' malarkey so often fed to us really drives a lot of people to aggressive to us.

BellaSolanum · 03/11/2014 16:52

"Like many people with various disabilities, I could spend my entire life chasing various medical appts which might or might not be of any use to me. I have a limit of how much time I have, and being a woman with small children and a job, that time is even less. So mantras of "you really ought to see a consultant about xyz and get better" and suggestions that we're not really trying to get better. See also accusations to women about stuff being your own fault for being too passive/strident/bossy/not wanting equally paid jobs enough. "

I hadn't spotted the crossover there before, but you are right. If we don't get what we need or deserve then it's our fault for not trying hard enough.

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BellaSolanum · 03/11/2014 16:55

"'listen to what someone says their needs are, don't assume, then take them seriously and don't make it their responsibility to make it happen"

That's wonderful, I know I've had issues with people thinking they know what would help me, and often making things worse.

I know from my, also disabled, partner that people not listening is fairly universal. But he's more used to being listened to in other areas so tends to challenge it, whereas I often reach a point where I stop fighting because it's just not new to me.

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Shlep · 03/11/2014 17:01

I have generalised anxiety disorder and depression, my brother has schizoaffective disorder. I'm conflicted because I think that as a woman, I'm allowed to struggle more and 'feel' more- but that also meant it was easier to pretend I didn't have an illness. It has meant that a lot of things were blamed on hormones, my period etc (from the GP initially)- my depression especially. Even after I started anti depressants and CBT, my mum still believed it was from 'early menopause'. I think I could talk about the symptoms more easily, even if the actual illness I have is denied, and the fact it was blamed on early menopause/hormones etc was because of the stigma against mental illness, and being a woman there was an 'excuse' which provided an explanation for everything without the negative associations of mental illness.

I think when people say mentally ill woman, they are less likely to think of some of the most negative and offensive stereotypes! such as the 'danger to society'.

I think also, depression and anxiety are strongly associated with women. Very strongly. Schizophrenia and PTSD seems to be associated mainly with men- for PTSD, I think it's partly because of the whole army/PTSD image in people's minds, but I think it's seen as a 'strong' illness, iyswim? I think also, women are generally able to talk about their difficulties more and in a more supportive environment. I think for schizophrenia, it's partly because people see schizophrenia as making people violent, or dangerous, and they might associate those traits more with men, or rather fail to associate any of those traits with a woman?

Also, personality disorders seem more associated with women? It always seems to be women who are armchair diagnosed wih narcissistic or borderline etc personality disorders- although sociopaths and psychopaths are usually assumed to be men.

SevenZarkSeven · 03/11/2014 18:37

When I had surgeries that were going to leave scarring as a child, there did seem to be a big emphasis on what the appearance would be afterwards, whereas what I was interested in, and surely everyone else should have been as well, was will these parts of her body function more normally afterwards. The scarring really who gives a stuff if it means you can have a more "normal" life.

I don't know if that would have been the same with a boy (the scarring is on limbs, not facial). I kind of got the feeling it wouldn't have been, it was a long time ago now though.

Mental health issues have a host of issues around them for both men and women it seems. Women seem to be "imagining it" or pressurise themselves to soldier on while men are socialised not to get any help for ages seemingly. The whole thing's a bit of a disaster area really.

The stuff that is coming out around various mental health conditions and sexual abuse, it seems that side of things has been brushed under the carpet (surprise surprise) for years and people are starting to look at it. There was a poster on here who had worked with girls with severe MHPs (in patient) and she said they had all been abused, had horrific stories, but when she flagged this she was told that that wasn't a concern / something to concern herself with (massive from memory there this was years ago). Not sure if that last part is totally off message for the thread but just this idea that a certain amount of MHPs are a perfectly reasonable reaction to what has happened in life rather than due to a woman being "emotional" or whatever is hopefully going to be thought about more.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/11/2014 19:13

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FrauHelga · 03/11/2014 19:16

Seven - WRT to scarring - DS had a series of operations and has barely visible scars. Honestly, you'd never ever see them. Doctors pushed, very very hard, at one point, for him to have plastic surgery on them, purely from an aesthetic, appearance pov .

He was in his teens and refused. And was told "if your hair is short people will notice". And he had the long greasy haired 14 year old going on at the time. but he now has his hair short and I don't think anyone has noticed.

BellaSolanum · 03/11/2014 19:35

I think when people say mentally ill woman, they are less likely to think of some of the most negative and offensive stereotypes! such as the 'danger to society'.

That's definitely one that's applied more to men, though mothers with mental health problems are definitely treated as a risk.

I'd never really thought of the contrast between what is expected of women's behaviour/understanding and aspergers before.

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/11/2014 19:41

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BellaSolanum · 03/11/2014 19:46

Yep, that's it, I wonder if men with aspergers are more accepted because of being seen as "more male" and wether it affects their chances of getting a diagnosis?

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Shlep · 03/11/2014 19:47

I think when you think of mothers especially, with mental illnesses, people tend to think of them being a danger to the child/baby. For men- fathers or not- the stereotypes are of them not just being a danger to their family, but to society as a whole. I don't think that's the same for mothers. Probably connected to seeing men as inherently more violent (stemming from misogyny etc) and the place some people see men and women as holding within society and family.

Also, just a q, what is discrimination against people with a mental illness- disablism?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/11/2014 19:56

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BellaSolanum · 03/11/2014 20:02

That's the term I'd use Shlep

I tend to agree with those who argue for using the same terms for both physical and mental health due to mental health often being treated as if it's imaginary, and it being a good idea to keep reminding people it's just as real as something physical

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YonicScrewdriver · 03/11/2014 20:10

Thanks to all posters - I am learning a lot.

FrauHelga · 03/11/2014 20:45

I'm actually sitting here right now in pain - nerve pain and pins and needles in my leg and arm. And I'm trying to be a hero and not take painkillers. Why the fuck is that?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/11/2014 20:50

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FrauHelga · 03/11/2014 20:53

Grin I know. My brain knows that. My emotion (?) heart (?) stubborness (most likely) says no I can stick it out.

Why the fuck do I do this? Spasmy shoulders and nervy pain in arm and numb leg. And I won't take a fucking painkiller because ?? I dunno. The best ones that work on the spasmy shit are diazepam. And they're valium. Mother's little helper. Hmm face. And the strong ones for the nerve pain will make me sleep. Ergo, I am hero, I soldier on. Social conditioning? Or just plain fucking thran and stubborn? Meh who knows Smile

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/11/2014 20:56

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FrauHelga · 03/11/2014 21:00

True Buffy - and co-codamol, the big ones, make me constipated (TMI I know) and gabapentin I have to take by 7pm or I'm doolally the next day and it's already 9pm, and amitrip is the same, and I have naproxen and robaxin and want to keep them and paracetamol until bedtime. Or possibly tramadol. But that makes me trip massively trippy. And, like it or not, I'm in the house on my own, DD is at her dad's, and if anything goes wrong there's no one here.

Which is a small example of the choices any person with chronic pain has to face, I guess.

Thanks for the Thanks though and right back at ya - Brew? Can't have Wine if I'm on the painkillers

BellaSolanum · 03/11/2014 21:02

Frau I do that too. We're obviously both just daft Wink

Serious answer, there's a real taboo around taking pills like painkillers for longterm conditions. Similar to taking pills for stuff like depression.

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weegiemum · 03/11/2014 21:03

This is interesting, I have both a physical disability and a PD.

I can't read it all tonight - way too sore and tired.

I have a neurological illness which is found around 20:80 male:female. Thus the female aspects of it (causes a lot of numbness which can go up to my waist - affecting many parts of my life!) aren't very well understood, especially as I'm in my forties and also young to have it. I'm a wheelchair user sometimes and I'm sure that some Hmm faces are due to my age and weight. I also have experience of the "does she take sugar" syndrome - but dh is fantastic at deflecting these comments.

Otoh, my pd is common amongst women, and I find it minimised ("just" part of being a woman) or seen as a part of having my neuro illness, which it predates by two decades.

Mumbling on - must go to bed! Will be checking back in.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 03/11/2014 21:29

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weegiemum · 03/11/2014 21:53

PD - personality disorder