Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

I don't find it intimidating - although I think anyone invested in this forum really should take note of the sheer number of women that have said that they find it to be so.

My personal frustration is when you voice an idea and people reply to say that the issue has already been agreed to be XYZ and there's nothing more to be said. I find this a really odd way to behave bearing in mind that:

a) Feminism can't be said to have achieved all its aims yet - so surely there are ways to increase its potency, relevance and reach.
b) Feminsism should really be liberal and therefore inclusive, open-minded, not dogmatic clique impervious to change.

c) Feminism isn't a like a Haynes manual for a Ford Escort with a hierarchy of self-appointed master technicians whose approval needs to be gained.

Hullo everyone,

Thanks for all your reports. We're just taking a look now, and will post again once we've sorted out what's what.

Tbh I think some of the problem stems from the fact that feminism and feminists are seen as some kind of unified force. It's not. There's no feminist hive mind.

Feminism is just a collection of ideas and actions centred around the idea of equal opportunity for women. Any proposal that it "should" be this or that is really reading a lot more into the debate than I think is there.

I was the shocker that said to another poster's choice "contributes to my oppression" so I really feel I need to respond about that. That statement came several pages in to a long discussion where we carefully unpacked why individual choices don't equate straightforwardly with feminist acts; where posters insisting that their freedom of choice trumped any other consideration reframed any opposition to that as, "you are telling me I'm not informed or clever." I thought quite carefully about how to frame the harm I perceive when people make their choices without feeling they should be accountable to the others who are affected by those choices. I purposely choose a clear and unambiguous statement in the context that careful arguments before that had be ignored or misinterpreted. This had a negative effect on one particular and very nice poster. However, there was a clear context in which I and others had sincerely and carefully engaged with counter arguments but all of my counter arguments had been dismissed as my telling others what to do, or treating people as if they are not informed or whatever. I did not say it lightly but had tried to speak more lightly in earlier points in the discussion.

I absolutely did not show up and start telling people they weren't feminist or clever enough, I went through arguments, responded to points others made and then pointed to my experience of other women insisting they have to have a choice available to them which contributes to my inequity, which is that it contributes to my oppression. The way it is described on this thread is unfair to me and others in that context.

tipsyloolah Wow that was really nice to read

Hello (again)

We've had a look at both threads, and whilst we think it's fair enough to ask about how many people post in FWR, it's not really on to then start a thread in a different topic critiquing the responses, where people can't defend themselves. So we'll be removing this thread in a moment.

After taking another look - we're going to re-open this thread. We'd appreciate it if people could keep their comments about FWR, and keep within the talk guidelines

That's fantastic! Thank you!

feel free to delete my cross thread about this thread being deleted!

Good news. I think it is a bit off to start the two threads (and not come back to debate the points raised!) but it's been interesting to read both threads.

I don't post on the feminism threads because I don't fit the stereotype and I got attacked and belittled and so I walked away.

I'm sure I'm not the only one - and I would do it to any other thread where I felt attacked in the same way, so it's not just an anti feminism thing - I am very much a feminist.

I don't have a degree in feminism and I don't have the big words of posters on here, but I am, or at least was, willing to listen and learn. But not when what I am, who I am, is attacked and belittled.

Lizzievereker, I have probably missed you as you posted this last night and I am coming late to this thread, but I just wanted to pick up on something:

please do not feel you should not post because "FWR regulars get tired of explaining the basics." This is not true, not at all true, as I understand it (I am a name changing FWR regular)

What some FWR posters have said is that they find it tiresome to be repeatedly challenged on the basics by posters who are more spoiling for a fight (without really understanding the issues, which is fine, but going in all guns blazing to insist that the issues don't exist and no one should even talk about them). Having a fem-dedicated part of the site means that happens a bit less (except for forming a useful sign post for certain sorts of incomer);

BUT no one will ever be impatient with someone coming on and asking in good faith "what on earth do you mean by that?" That is an entirely different thing

Damsili, tell me more about this:

"Feminsism should really be liberal and therefore inclusive"

• I am interested, in many contexts, in the use of "liberal" seeming to come packed up with automatic positive connotations. Including things that seem to be really close to kindness, even!

to me it is mistaken. to me liberalism and kindness are utterly separate and neither necessarily implies the other

In many senses, to be liberal favours the status quo, the already strong. To be liberal about violence, in society, for instance, favours those who have the wherwithal to beat people up. Let's not be liberal about violence.

I am happy to liberal about homosexuality though

What do you think liberal means, and why do you think feminism should be it? any more than anything else should be it? or should everything be liberal?

FrauHelga, I am very sorry you have been attacked and belittled. did you report it as a personal attack?

(not that you have to - or necessarily should - just that we know that personal attacks are absolutely not in the spirit of mn)

I'ma feminist who likes the feminism topic and threads, but I'll just as easily put a feminist POV or have a feminist discussion on any other thread. I don't see a difference - I suppose I don't see any topic as either limiting or intimidating. (Have recently namechanged btw so all my ranty feminist posts are under other names atm)

I'm often surprised when people say AIBU is scary for example - is it? I thought it was just a kind of witty way of asking for opinions that grew out of people using that phrase. If someone tells me YABU I'm not scared or upset... don't get it.

I do see that actual sneering, aggressive nastiness and name-calling are not on and can be upsetting, but I see less of them on feminism threads than elsewhere. Any thread can go bad.

I think there is a tendency among some women to do that kind of "Oh little me, I'm not clever enough to understand" thing or to make out that women having strong opinions and making clear arguments about what they think is a scary thing. I know women who do that in RL, when they are not remotely thick and could easily join in. I think there's a bit of that going on. But also, if and when any feminist posters are not respectful and don't stay calm, that's not on either.

I can rant on and on but it's just my opinions based on what I see around me and my thoughts about them, developed through exactly the kind of conversations we have on the fWR topic. I never studied feminism, I haven't read any great feminist works, I'm not an expert in the least. I just spell out what makes sense to me.

I do also sort of agree with THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE BUT FIRST IT WILL PISS YOU OFF. I don't tell friends I think they are colluding with the patriarchy by changing their name or whatever, even though I think so - because it would piss them off! A feminism topic, in a way, is a place where we should be able to talk about those kinds of ideas. But by definition, that will piss some people off and they'll stay away.

I am puzzled by all the people who say they have been attacked and belittled- I have rarely seen this. And presumably if it was that common the threads would be peppered with deletions?

No, I didn't report it. But feel free to search my user name - I was probably usingthisnameonlyonce (frauhelga was a thread inspired name change)

Re liberal, I think it's reeally interesting that it can mean both left and right-wing in different ways.

There's lefty liberal, liberal parents etc which means you think people should be able to do what they like as long as it's not harming anyone else. You are fine with homosexuality, atheism, sex before marriage etc.

Then there's libertarian (often in the US) version of liberal which means you hate the nanny state and think you should be allowed to carry a gun, smoke where you like, not pay tax, suffer road cameras etc. These people are usually right wing and are quite happy to clamp down on homosexuality etc al.

They're the same basic word so it can be very confusing.

Frauhelga- are you saying the other posters on that thread were feminists?

Yes. The thread was in FWR.

Apologies for short answers - am getting ready to go out

I know, which is why we have to be so careful of saying "feminism should be liberal". (aside from the specific feminist terminology of the difference between liberal and for instance radical feminism)

I am not going to go on and on about this because it is a bee in my bonnet (not about feminism but in general) that a lot of well meaning mistakes are made, in my opinion, through a misunderstanding of "liberal" and a whole lot of wrong associations.

BUT

even if we pinned down what we mean by liberal here, and it is Good Stuff. I think if we interrogate it, we get to something like: feminism should be liberal because it means women should be free to do what they want to do. (they want to get loaded, and have a good time! no that was something else) - to me that is EXTREMELY problematic because being "liberal" contains the very fact of, and reinforces, authority. It implies that the liberal kind owners of women will allow the darlings to go out to work, if they want to. Being a liberal parent is allowing your children to run around in pyjamas, it is not saying "you're the adult, run your own life" - because you're still the parent.

And as women, it misunderstands who we are in this power relationship, and what are agency is, and our role vis a vis liberalism.

This is potentially very long so I am going to stop here but there is something very interesting and important about the MC use word of liberal = good. And I suspect it comes from a position of power. Liberality = kindness IF you have the power to be mean and you decide to stop. What about the people who are always having mean things done to them? What use is it to them to decide to embrace liberalism? What good will that do them?

There are a million things wrong with liberal and about a million great essays to be written about it and about 10 of them are in my head right now, but I will spare you the rest

Oh Hak, the posters I mentioned upthread frequently sniped at me. Especially when I threatened to unveil the scandal about Sheila Jeffries that was going around in 1988. And there was outrage when a poster - who had in fact written some of the central feminist historical stuff on the topic - pointed out that some of the popular clichés about witchburning might actually not be exactly historically true.

It was all a bit timewarpy, as far as I was concerned. I'm the sort of feminist who watched the film Pride with chuckles of recognition about Back In Those Days, so a couple of dames trying to tell me with breathless indignation I'd got it all wrong made me feel nettled but not fundamentally threatened; there was, however, a barking nastiness about it all which made me reluctant to put myself back in the firing line.

I'll pm you

Oh totally agree rosedearg about "liberal = good". It's allied to the view that "feminism is about choice" and "if a women choose to do something and she's happy about it who are you to criticise." It's more complex than that and people take it as personal criticism even if you are just criticising the system that leads to the choice.