Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

Coffee, that's interesting because we sometimes get "why are you talking about X when little girls are being mytilated"

Mellow, the relationship board has a number of FWR regulars post on it.

No it doesn't Hak, not really. Express a different view to the accepted position and you're wrong and you can't possibly be a feminist

I come on here most days & read but rarely post. I've been a feminist since I can remember & have had most of these debates before so don't need educating. I do think a lot of posts become too intellectual & removed from most women's actual experience.

I also think debates are quite hard because lots of people are quite rigid in their thinking. Lots of women don't like to think they're oppressed if they don't feel so.

I'm not convinced that posting on feminist threads achieves much. It's mainly preaching to the converted. I think living in a way which demands and demonstrates equality is more effective. I don't think of myself as a feminist but I will object to inequality whenever I see it-whether it is gender, income, race or any other type.

the general feel of the threads can be a bit shouty and ranty IMO

in fact i have learnt alot around feminism from MN, just not from this talk board especially

also for me this issue is so prevalant that its not only convered in this topic

look at relationships, the gender issues there
look at work, family and work issues for women
look at how people discuss gender conditioning for little girls (pink stinks)
and general conversation across the board about rape, gender discrimination, sex discrimination

people discuss it everywhere

I often read threads on there and find some of them very thought provoking but I don't like the attitude to men. A brave man recently posted on there and got a response along the lines of I knew your post would be a waste of time because you are a man. If a man posted that about something a woman posted on a website there would be uproar. It just seems like double standards. I think feminism should be about working towards equality, not about trying to make women superior to men.

'The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? '

What do you think?
Are you failing to reach your target audience?
Or are the boards for debate between like-minded people and posters don't think that it's their place or job to reach out to try and involve more women?

LBP, I see where you are coming from. But I am happy to say that shaving my legs contributes to the oppression of women into seeing leg shaving as a norm, it doesn't mean that I'm not a feminist.

I personally don't tend to use oppression in that context as I prefer milder words like "contributing to societal norms" or whatever but it's really not intended to be personal. It's probably fair to say that's not always clear.

"posters don't think that it's their place or job to reach out to try and involve more women"

Are other boards on MN tasked with the job of reaching out to others? Aren't most of us here chatting on boards we enjoy and dipping into boards we love less but sometimes have questions for?

Coffee recent articles have pointed out that up to 170,000 women in the UK may have been subjected to FGM. I think that makes it a pretty significant issue and worthy of feminist attention. But it goes without saying that if you are not interested in that topic, you can ignore those threads -- I don't see how having those threads here detracts from any of the other subjects of conversation that can be had.

You would rather discuss women as carers, dealing with the family courts and CSA. None of that is actually relevant to me so I might not read those threads, but I think it's great if they're there for other women who are interested. Why not start threads on that?

I think the more topics the better. If you think something gets too much attention, don't walk away, just bring up the things you want to talk about, you may be surprised how many others are out there feeling the same.

Fair enough Yonic perhaps the word oppression is used too quickly. I think that 'societal norms' would get more buy in from newbies to the board. It's true (I think, no one shaves their legs purely through a choice made in a vacuum) but it's also less judgemental --slightly struggles for appropriate word)

Also clearly struggles with typing

Intellectual Masturbation! Arf!

And further to what Yonic says --

I think there will always be some tension around the FWR board because there seems to be some expectation that it should be welcoming to everyone no matter what people say, that it needs to be consistently gentle and engaging etc.

And that will rile those who object to the way that women are constantly socialised to be nice, to compromise, to deal with unpleasantness in a gentle way instead of saying fuck off, etc.

And it may provoke some scepticism, when people say 'you are all so aggressive and rude', because of studies showing that women and men are judged completely differently when they are assertive (men are seen as strong and assertive, women as bossy and rude).

I don't want to excuse rudeness because I do think that we should try to be pleasant and engage rather than offend. But I'm not sure the expectations put on the board are always fair, if having even one rude post on one thread means people will never come back.

I lurk and occasionally post here all the time. I have never felt unwelcome and I discovered spotify here .

I am not particularly educated on feminist theory nor particularly articulate but I enjoy the passionate, thoughtful and clued up discussions on here and they often spill over into RL discussion with DH, colleagues and friends. This board has made me want to learn more so I can join in with the rousing intellectual debates one day.

I feel like I should post more now for moral support. IMO, this is the most interesting board on MN

"No it doesn't Hak, not really. Express a different view to the accepted position and you're wrong and you can't possibly be a feminist"

The trouble is that there are some views that are actually anti feminist and you can't both hold them and be a feminist!

Pointlessfan-nobody wants to make women superior to men.

And yes, men are sometimes regarded with suspicion. Because men have come on these boards before and been hideous- linking to other forums, and just generally being obnoxious. But there are thoughtful and interesting male posters who are a million miles away from those people.

'And that will rile those who object to the way that women are constantly socialised to be nice, to compromise, to deal with unpleasantness in a gentle way instead of saying fuck off, etc.'

I see posters being assertive, confident, rude and able to say fuck off (in a way that doesn't get them deleted) everywhere on MN. So perhaps that's not the reason people avoid certain boards.

I also agree, yonic
'Aren't most of us here chatting on boards we enjoy and dipping into boards we love less but sometimes have questions for?'

And engaging in debate and exchanging opinions and learning new stuff? Absolutely.
So why does that sadden the OP? What are her thoughts on her own question?

I don't understand why anyone would be put off posting on here because of threads about things that mainly affect women overseas.

Things like fgm, abortion rights, forced marriage, rape as a weapon of war I think should be discussed on these boards. It doesn't mean that people don't care about things that effect women in the uk more, and there are threads for those too.

A lot of regs here post in politics as well which is where I would be more likely to post about eg the government cuts and their disproportionate effects on women. There are lots of threads over there about that.

If people want to talk about issues that affect them or they feel strongly about they can start a thread in whatever area they prefer I think.

I do think there an element of self fulfilling prophesy here. Some people can't see the word "feminist" without seeing the words "strident" "aggressive"'militant" and "man hating"(such is the triumph of the patriarchy and the popular press working together) So if a woman says something feministy for some people that subtext is there whether it is actually there or not.

I don't tend to come here because I used to dislike being savaged by Dittany and Sakura back in the day - particularly because it just felt like a re-run of the early 1980s, thanks very much; because I have trans friends; but mainly because I am a very old boot of 51 who's been around the feminist block quite a few times by now.

Firstly I don't find this intimidating, it is in cyberspace with no power over the real world. Yes there is name calling if you don't automatically believe points or dare to have a different opinion. I may agree on FGM but certainly the few vocal posters on here about striptease (and let's stop calling it lapdancing as no laps are involved) are never going to agree with me. Call me a man, call me a rape apologist or anything else you want, it is not real and can only hurt me if I let it.

This board has helped me though, whenever I see figures produced by either side of an argument the first thing I do is look at the frames of reference, the methodology and the intended audience. It is amazing how badly some of this has been done over the years and even on this board things like Lilith were quoted for years after being debunked even though the real figures proved the opposite based on freedom of information requests. It has educated me that rhetoric is all very nice but sometimes people do make up some stupid things.

Also this board has got me to read more research papers like those from Kent and Leeds and I have even read Gail Dines doctorate thesis which gave me a bit of a laugh. Realistically this board has stimulated my mind even though some of the "in" terms are hilariously made to sound clever when the meaning is born a woman or born a man or affects people of different race or classes.

Thank you I now Question, Question, Question