Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

Buffy I agree.

For me personally I am gender critical/gender abolitionist, so that does put me in opposition to a fair bit of trans theory. I also find it frustrating from a feminist POV to see words like "female" and "woman" - words which put a name to why we are oppressed under a patriachy - redefined. Eg. FGM, the female part of it is central to why it happens, taking that away minimises the connection between what it is and why it happens.

But at the same time I am hugely supportive of trans people in the fact that this gender rigid society is causing them so much harm, I would liketo see them accepted as who they are no matter whether they are "feminine" or "masculine", not at risk of violence or suicide. And I think that a genderless society would probably be the better solution because not only would the worry about passing not need to exist, but it also wouldn't be throwing women under the bus at the same time.

"a genderless society" - Oh ... my ... god. When's that going to happen? I haven't got too much lifetime left, can we hurry it up?!

Your post may be the very first time I've seen that phrase, Bella. Cheers!

If only garlic! Wouldn't it be lovely? Obviously we'd still need to tackle issues like rape and VAW, but maybe it'd be easier if men and women weren't seen as opposites?

I suspect not in our lifetime though, probably not in our children's, there;s a lot of resistance to it. Just look at the hatred a campaign like LTBT gets for suggesting genderless toy shops!!

Been out for the evening, but hi there Sabrina, yes I do remember a lot of our exchanges and some of the 'challenging ones' and I do also remember you sticking up for me specifically - iirc I was trying to get a male poster, or more, to see different natures of male violence and the gendered nature of a lot of it, rather than just hand-wringing and saying "it's all awful. Why do you wish to analyse/connect bits of it to gender so much?".

ooh hi pan. Yes it was dv and whether it was gendered. You were arguing that it was gendered, and were called something by some trollytroll. Also, on another thread, you argued against the acceptance of 'boys will be boys' roughplay in school - something which is particularly close to my heart. I went to a pretty rough primary school where some of the boys hit and punched the girls all the time. And got away with it. It was just terrifying to me at the time. That fear stays with me in a way - that I know men can largely overpower me, and oftentimes society/authorities will do little about it. Now though - I see it as a pattern of male violence - why were these little boys picking on the girls? And what did they witness at home to shape their behaviour??

As an aside, I do think any argument you have with buffy is completely unfounded.

ah yes the rough and tumble in school thread! I recall trying to work out how much damaging stuff pro-R&T posters had merely absorbed themselves, with a sort of "it didn't do me any harm" attitude......'I'd beg to differ on that'. That is long in the anals too.

That is long in the anals - Ouch! Could be nasty.

I missed the pictures of DV being posted here. Another feministy page (Jezebel) was being rolled with Rape gifs.

Feminism is mainly concerned with the way women are treated in this world (by men) so yes, discussion of being pissed off at men (NAMALT) is bound to happen. And will happen frequently.

anals?, yep Garlic, saw it, thought to note it and thought 'naaah, someone will have fun with it.

In fairness to PP, what I have seen recently are venting threads along the lines of "I've had to put up with so much crap recently - from sexist bosses through men cat-calling in the street to an expectation of pornified behaviour on first dates with men I've met through OD - how the hell do I stop myself internalising this and hating the whole sex?" And it's easy to take an individual post on a thread like that out of context and see "I hate all men, all the time." The answer, I think is to look across the board as a whole.

And there's a certain irony in it - I've just been on the feminism and bringing up boys thread, and there's a poster peddling the line of "well of course women shouldn't go back to a man's house 'for a coffee' expecting just a coffee - she'd be guilty of contributory negligence if he raped her, because clearly 'coffee' is shorthand for 'sex'" - in other words, yet another person who thinks it's impossible to have genuine platonic friendships with men because they're ravening sex beasts. And I've pointed out yet again the irony of the old saw that it's feminists who hate men - because in my experience, generally it's women with a lot of internalised misogyny and very "traditional" beliefs about gender roles who have this sort of woefully low opinion of men in general.

(Of course, there's the further problem that feminist discussion of sexual violence or domestic violence relies on class analysis, and there's an implied "NAMALT" which doesn't get put in every time - but others have discussed this far more eloquently upthread).

I am embarrassingly predictable, Pan.

A really fascinating thread, which I'm afraid I've skimmed rather themn followed the ups & downs in detail. BUt to go back to the OP question & some of the earlier responses. I don't post here much because
a) I have a lot of work to do, and I know that if I got really involved here it would be another time-sucker
b) I teach this stuff and ...
c) ... early posts suggest that feminists like me "academics" oh god help us we're arrogant stuck up & pretentious aren't [particularly welcome because we're academics and as usual, there's a strong and aggressive anti-academic vibe here at times (it's really noticeable at the beginning of this thread & in the matching thread in AIBU).
d) I tend to write as I lecture, and I tend to be interested in things which come across as "too theoretical"
e) I am really sick of having to apologise for that
f) I used to post occasionally on the BBC Woman's HOur MB, until the trolls caused them to close it. Used to post occasionally & then not at all, because it wasn't just the trolls it was other women feeling oh I don't know as if just writing the way I',m used to writing was somehow offensive to them. Anti-academic, anti-theory stuff again.

So, I read here, I enjoy the debates when I have time, but I am so so so sick of other women in the guise of feminism calling out my version of feminism as "too theoretical" or assuming that because I write as an academic, I am looking down on them or something. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just as other people use a version of text speak on her, I write like I write.

Besides, I do practical feminist activism in my own way: I teach it: we do not teach young women the basics of feminism any more, and I am engaged in a one-woman campaign to start that again. I call bullshit on the "post-feminism" rubbish. And I write books about little known amazing women who did stuff we should know more about.

Thanks for this thread -- it's really interesting (and that really is not sarcastic, believe me!). And whew, thanks for letting me get that off my chest

I call bullshit on the "post-feminism" rubbish.

Amen!

Can I just say (as someone who had very little education beyond the age of 16) that I actually bloody love the academics on FWR. Funny, smart, and bringing a whole different perspective that I find really interesting. On the rare occasion that my eyes gloss over because I have no idea what they are talking about I go on to the next thread. The same way I would about a million other threads where I'm not really sure what people are on about almost all of them in S&B. Generally though if there is something going on that I am not familiar with I just pay attention and am happily educated. The way I would be with women of all backgrounds that are different than mine.

All of it fascinating though .

Yes AsAMan that's the perfect attitude to have to posts on MBs generally IMO. As a lurker I agree with you about the erudite & funny posters in here.

As someone upthread said, it's only in feminism that women are expected to look after everyone. Yes, it's a tenet of the kind of 70s women's lib I was brought up in (hell, I was even in a consciousness-raising group in the 70s, someone should put me in a history book) that women are nurturing inclusive etc etc that is, everything that the model of macho masculinity wasn't/isn't but it's also been used as stick to beat us with.

Right, a deadline -- I"d better go back to lurking & ticking people off on the Higher Education section

My take on the academics is that they have little interest in anything which doesn't fit their theories. I've had one of them talking down to me in a way which was very patronising and condescending.

A fuck of a lot of talking down happens in other topics eg relationships (why did you have a baby with this man, you fool? type stuff)

I also love the academics on here - articulate and intelligent.

Please don't let these threads put any of you off posting.

Talking down happens everywhere. I've even seen it on S&B. If you're sensitive to it then maybe MN isn't for you?

IME, I've tended to find that if someone is already pretty contemptuous of things intellectual and/or academic (they're not always the same thing ) , then if they know a poster is an academic, there can be a tendency simply to see that, and nothing else.

I have no idea why such knee-jerk prejudice against academics exists; it was all-too evident in a thread in Chat a few days ago ...

Talking down happens everywhere. I've even seen it on S&B. If you're sensitive to it then maybe MN isn't for you?

This to me sounds worryingly close to the advice the police used to give to women getting threats on twitter. just leave! its probably not for you you sensitive flower!

It is not an answer to abuse, bullying and hate speech, to tell the person against whom that hate is directed to 'man up' or 'go away'.

I notice with disquiet a real reluctance on the part of some posters here to acknowledge just how foul some of the bullying on this board used to be. I am sure it is much better now. Certainly since some named individuals have gone.

But like anyone who has had a bad experience, it leaves me extra sensitive to repetition of that experience. And I think there should be a more whole hearted recognition of that kind of behaviour and rejection of it, not glossing it over as people getting upset by 'female anger' or being annoyed that someone is still upset about something that happened in the past.

I notice with disquiet a real reluctance on the part of some posters here to acknowledge just how foul some of the bullying on this board used to be

1. I don't think it or has been bullying.

1. It's the anti Fwr posters on this thread who have been the most aggressive. Demanding posters apolgise for posters who were already hounded off the forum years ago

1. FWR if anything is almost a bit of a parody of the polite feminist. People can spend half a thread apologizing to each other. AIBU someone would just tell you to fuck off and be done with it.

1. those of you who are "so afraid" to post on FWr seem to have no problem telling everyone here where they are going wrong

I love talking to academics, it makes a me feel incredibly thick, but I like to learn and find more academic approaches hugely interesting.

No one is forced to read a long academic explanation, and it'd be a shame for posts in that vein not to be posted just because some don't like them. Personally I gain a lot from not just being able to read the academic stuff but to then be able to talk directly to someone about the bits that zoom over my head.

I think, this being a feminist section and so naturally fraught with controversies, that if we only posted things that everyone liked it'd be a pretty quiet section.

I agree with the general gist of your disquiet, Spero, although I think we also have responsibility to ourselves: if a certain forum/board/thread is too combative or triggering for us, it's wise to leave it alone (and start another thread if it's a burning issue.) This is the only reason I'm not on any of the 'official' feminist forums or blogs. I've plenty to say, but not in the same 'language' as those arenas.

Re: 'academic'. There was an exchange of posts yesterday, in which somebody (Buffy?) said that while, fortunately, "we" don't have much experience of extreme situations, "we are cognisant of the difficulties and work to assist. Someone else replied saying, hold on, I actually do have those experiences.

This made me wonder whether what we're talking about is metaphorical academia - as in, posters can empathise academically with women suffering intersectional oppression, extreme poverty, generic violence, and so on - but can't genuinely relate to those women when they post?