Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

Pretty, there are some feminists who find men, in general, so unpleasant that they crave a life without men. There aren't many such. There are some MN posters who feel that way - very, very few indeed. I'd be astonished if you've seen actual man-hating discussions here! Not in the past few years, anyhow.

Is there any possibility that you've misconstrued some discussions, perhaps? I used to get antsy about discussions saying "men this & that" until someone kindly pointed out that it doesn't actually mean "all men". It either means 'the patriarchy' or men-as-a-group-generally-speaking. It's tedious & unnecessary to add "NAMALT" (not all men are like that) or "NAWALT" to every single mention of a gender in a conversation. Similarly, we can say 'men rape' to mean, in fact "the vast majority of rapists are men", which is not the same thing as "the vast majority of men are rapists."

... As a language nerd, I feel compelled to add that this irritates me. But one gets used to linguistic shorthand in any group :)

Sorry Buffy, I typed your name by accident, it was supposed to be Blistory I was replying to. It's what I get for trying to mn and google cissexist at the same time.

I also don't have personal beef with anyone here, nor am I trying to offer any constructive criticism. I enjoy lurking in the FWR threads quite a bit, it gives me a bit of perspective on some of my own views and validates some small feelings that I have, but other things shock me at times.

I have said a couple of times, though I think this point has been lost, I in no way think that all feminists are man hating. I've seen some lovely posts on here about men and some pretty valid views on what equality is about.

It is the (minority of) posters who express man hating views and over dramatic declarations that mostly put me off of posting. I've a son, a few males that I know and respect and who are all round great people so I don't wish to be tied in with someone who claims to be a feminist but who thinks men are shit basically.

Does that make sense? I'm sorry if you (anyone here) felt I was personally attacking you/feminism in general. I was simply meaning that the posters who post anti men stuff put me off of posting, not that feminism was anti men. And as you can probably tell from that rambled reply, I'm not very good at saying what I mean!

I do remember that women who expressed discomfort about the way men were constructed on FwR were dismissed as having 'Not my Bernard ...' Types

Which was was pretty effective slap down.

Pretty That makes sense, I've yet to see any posts like that, but I will say that the answer to there being posts like that is to have more feminists on here who don't hate men. You could always drown out those kinds of voices with the rest of us.

I've never seen a man or woman posting an alternate pov here threatened with violence, and yet plenty of the feminist posters here have been threatened. One with a gun - along the lines of I know who you are... Women online are threatened with rape and violence after posting anything remotely feminist.

I myself reported a very personally threatening post against me on a thread about prostitution- and MN deleted it. SGM was threatened, many other feminists have left because of threats. Many websites exist that literally laugh about violence against women - and post shocking photos. Trolls have done so here, although MN deletes them.

It's not funny - and I'm a feminist with a sense of humour. But that shit isn't funny. But it's what the regulars here deal with regularly.

Buffy, I am including myself in the creation of the atmosphere, not saying it is something I am outside of being done to me.

I am trying to think of ways of discussing it without it being personal. Maybe linking to blogs that discuss how people talk online, so it is more general than nitpicking over X said Y.

Absolutely, Buffy.

They actually did it all over MN, not just FWR. They should be the brunt of the anger her - not FWR posters - who I've always found pretty unfailingly polite in comparison.

Bloody hell, Buffy Glad I missed that

This is what's holding me back from starting the empowerment-for-women website that's been forming in my brain for the past six years. I'm frightened.

It works, doesn't it?!

I do actually think that considering what the rest of the internet holds with regards to women, it's not actually that bad that a tiny corner of MN holds a space that has a knot of regular posters vehemently posting for women's rights. Is it?

I mean the FB/reddit pages that are anti-women are something to behold. And that's just two examples.

I feel quite conflicted about all of this. Like a PP I live in a conservative place where I feel very isolated politically and I don't know anyone who identifies as a feminist so this board has become an important refuge for me.

I like the level of debate and think (on the whole) that the regulars posters manage to discuss, disagree, debate points in a way that is very respectful of each other- IMO much more so than elsewhere on MN. However I find some aspects of the board problematic and its hard to articulate why. Its not that I lack confidence, or feel patronised or anything like that- its more that it just takes me ages to figure out what I think about subjects that regulars have debated inside out and seem to have a consensus on and I cant (or possibly cant be bothered) to keep up.

The trans issue was an example of this. Like a PP, I have lots of trans friends and hang out in a very mixed queer crowd (when in London) and I am also used to being with feminists that are very inclusive of anyone trans or queer. So I tried to get to grips with the discussion on FWR and figure it all out but the thread moved so quickly and it just felt like posters had an answer for everything before I could even crystallise what my own thoughts were. Everyone was respectful and engaged but it did feel like there was a party line and I was on the wrong side of it. Im not sure why that should be the posters of FWR's problem- but it might be off putting for others too and in the end I bowed out as it just started to feel a bit weird.

I also got pms from other feminists expressing their frustration about this issue saying that they had wouldn't post anymore because of the regularity in which these views (on trans people) were expressed on the board.

Its weird because I identify as a feminist, am comfortable and confident about taking on new ideas/theories, have to write for a living so should be able to express myself, know lots of trans people and longterm feminists and so have a reasonable amount of exposure to these kinds of ideas/arguments- yet I felt like the conversation was a bit pointless.

Probably not a very helpful post, sorry. (you did ask)

Yes, buffy, I remember that one too. It was horrifying - and let's remember why it was posted here. To put women in their place - to say to women that we are lesser than men. That we are deserving of this violence.

Sabrrinnnnnna I totally agree. Its like terrorism I feel. If you stop doing what you feel is right then they've won.

I wonder if the view of FWR as man-hating idea comes from the combination of

1. not understanding the talk of men as a class in patriarchy
2. not being used to seeing men criticized for misogyny
3. the very real and healthy anger women might feel towards misogynist and/or violent men
4. not understanding why feminists roll their eyes at yet another man trolling or going "hello ladies, as a man I think..." here.

mimi I agree it's definitely like terrorism.

Yes mimi - The FWR is an invaluable space for women. I really want MN to know this.

The rest of the internet is like anarchy - anyone can just say anything. Twiiter for example - multiple rape threats against women for any reason - and we're seemingly powerless against it. CCP, MB, and so on, Ched Evan's victim, even the ones prosecuted don't seem to suffer as their victim does.

I applaud MN for having this space, and the WBY Campaign, even though it is incessantly invaded by trolls. MNHQ have a pretty good policy about them now.

It is terrorism. Well, that's making me more determined although still cautiously!

I noticed posters from France, on another thread, saying catcalling & groping had got a lot worse (it was bad enough when I lived there, in the Stone Age.) I immediately made a connection with feminism, which - while very different from British feminism, is strong & powerful in France - to see it as a misogynistic backlash.

In that light, terror tactics are an encouraging signal :)

Ghandi: First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

What bothers me about trans is the subset who want to appropriate words like "female" to mean only what they want it to mean. I'm happy to share the word but no one can convince me it doesn't apply the vast majority of the time to people born with a vagina.