Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

Sorry I have only got to page 7 and will RTFT in a minute but with regards to FGM not being an issue in the UK I had to speak up.

coffeeinapapercup I'm sorry to say it is. It recently became manadatory for Doctors to record all patients with FGM in medical notes. In September alone there were 467 cases.

Buffy, I think that honestly trying to engage with what somebody is saying is a basic courtesy in a discussion.

If you are responding for the benefit of lurkers, not the other person, isn't that rude and aggressive.

What I am trying to say is that various posters have pointed out their issues with FWR and one asked if the regulars intended to do anything about it. I'm suggesting specific changes which might make the board more courteous.

feel that some women tend to act like all men are utter pigs and not worth the dirt on the bottom of your shoe

Do people do that? I've not noticed it. But I don't hang around this man-hating forum much. Do you?

When I'm posting for Yorkers, I spend more time going over basic stuff that has often already been said on the thread, so they follow the arguments. At times I can't be parsed with that - if I think I'm being wound up on purpose for example - and give shorter shrift. I'm not sure people mean they post the equivalent of ODFOD for lurkers as you seem to think Almond. I had the impression that Buffy posted in the same spirit.

I think that honestly trying to engage with what somebody is saying is a basic courtesy in a discussion.

I agree...if the person has honest intentions. However, this board is frequently trolled by MRAs and similar types.
Do you think we should be courteous even when we strongly suspect that the poster is a troll/has an anti-feminist agenda? It feels like a waste of time to me.

Could you give an example of the man hating at all, Pretty? I don't recognise it so am interested in the kind of view or post that you interpret as man hating. I'm being genuine, I realise that could read quite PA

Speaking for myself here, but writing for lurkers is the opposite of being rude and aggressive. Goady poster says something aggressive or silencing. If I respond to the poster, my inclination might be to say "Fuck off, asshole." If I write a response for lurkers who may be newbies to FWR or just hesitating for whatever reason, then I might actually try to address the goady troll's aggressive poster's assertions as a way of speaking to, and not alienating, lurkers.

Also Almond, what aspects of the language discussion are hostile, in your view?

Yes, briar, and the MRA trolls can be very disingenuous. They come on with a straw-feminist argument - things like the classic 'men are all rapists' - I wouldn't be at all surprised if the things infrequent lurkers are talking about here were in fact written by mra trolls.

Because, of course, they know if they come on with all of Paul Elam's latest quotes they'll be spotted straight away.

In my opinion, Buffy and others who take the time to write thoughtful responses with lurkers in mind are doing a great service and should be thanked, not vilified.

I'm excluding myself here; I don't have the patience for it anymore, but I am grateful to those who do.

Outsself, I am not going to point out the hostile language because it would involve singling out the poster that did it, which I feel would be mean.

I think if people respond to a troll and don't discuss the points that the troll seems to raise, they are not actually challenging the argument, just the person.

Sorry but " the men are scum posters" ? Which posters, which posts ? I doubt very much whether you could show me any such thing and that kind of misrepresentation of FWR posters has to stop now.

You are peddling a myth about FWR and that's not on.

I think the board is fine fir the people who want to use it. By not have academic discussion? Why not have discussions on - let's fade it - fairly niche feminist problems such as MRAs on the Internet etc
I really don't think it needs to be changed.

But I don't think the fairly small number of people posting on FWR means the rest of us are not feminists or interested in feminist issues. That isn't the case At All.

I have never seen any man-hating on here, at all, and I lurk. A lot.

Focusing on the issues facing women, is NOT the same as hating men, far from it.

Furthermore, it's worth remembering, feminism WILL benefit the male of the species in the long run too.

I have a husband, and two sons, and I want things to change for THEM as much as I do for me and my three daughters.

Never underestimate talking to the lurkers - that was me once upon a time. That was what made me see the light. It's hard - but when the penny drops, it really drops. Although I held no particular anti-women/anti-feminist views, I held quite a few opinions that I'd consider rape myths now - victim blaming ones- that I was unaware of. Much of society still holds these rape myths now - it's very apparent in discussions about Ched Evans.

It was years ago - StewieGriffinsMom, SGB and a few others - about victim blaming, rape and dv- and the discussions that led to "We Believe You" Campaign. They were arguing and arguing with twatty trolls - and I just saw it. It was amazing.

Didn't even know the pages existed. Not that interested in looking either by the sound of your attitude. I don't really want to be on topics where people like to think they can "educate" me. I want to relax reading about lipstick, make-up and hair product recommendations, with the odd foray into property and travel pages oh and the aibu.

"If it seems as though someone is here simply to make women/feminists look or feel stupid (as many people seem to want to do, I'm sure you've seen as many as I have) then rather than ignoring them because they aren't engaging in good faith, I'll reply, not to that poster to try and convince them (misogynists don't listen to feminists anyway) but because I hope it might reassure others watching that such aggressive ignorance can be challenged. "

I agree with this.

"Speaking for myself here, but writing for lurkers is the opposite of being rude and aggressive. Goady poster says something aggressive or silencing. If I respond to the poster, my inclination might be to say "Fuck off, asshole." If I write a response for lurkers who may be newbies to FWR or just hesitating for whatever reason, then I might actually try to address the goady troll's aggressive poster's assertions as a way of speaking to, and not alienating, lurkers."

And this.

But what is the answer to that problem Buffy? People can only say somebody did it (result -paranoia), X did it (upset X), X who left years ago did it, it's a general issue (result- everyone denies it happens) or we all agree everything is fine.

I don't know how to get around the problem.

Is it not possible to say, "I found that x post felt quite hostile"? Then you are naming your experience without moving into accusation. Saying you experienced hostility is a world.away from saying such and such is hostile.

Buffy I'm not about to name specific posters, you and I both know that message would be deleted by MNHQ for personal attacks. But I can certainly give you some examples.

Not so long ago a group of women on this board got so so angry about a male/couple of men finding a sexist joke funny. The complete outrage they reacted with, slandering of all men in general, was disgusting, especially when a couple of the same women who got so angry over the joke had been laughing not so long before about a statement that was rather sexist towards men.

Some posters attacked David Cameron for not wearing a "this is what feminism looks like tshirt" where as others largely agreed that they wouldn't even wear that themselves.

However your attitude could also be putting posters off from posting as well. I said on my post that it was my experience and my opinions. I did not say that it was what all feminist posters have done, only some. I am not peddling any such myths, I am expressing my views, which are absolutely nothing to do with you unless you are one of those posters who assume that it is perfectly acceptable to call all men pieces of shit and get outraged over every tiny thing.

And I assume you have read the full thread, in which case you will have noticed I'm not the only poster to feel this way.

I'm also with Buffy et al on 'writing for lurkers'. For one thing, I'm shite at troll-spotting and my basic manners say I should address the content of a post, not my constructions about its intent. More saliently, a very high proportion of remarks that are seen, by experienced posters, as goading are pretty much exactly what the woman/man down the road says when I tell them I'm a feminist. To me, it feels important to answer the remark as presented for the benefit of all the women & men down the road, who might be reading and be frightened or annoyed away from the discussion if I went "Piss off, you disingenuous goady fucker." As said before: if it bores you, just skip past it. And, please, if you know for certain I'm 'expalining' to a troll, do tell me!

As to the "FWR doesn't need any alteration" message on the previous page - fair dos. That's a valid response. It means the answer to !www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads" is "Because we don't want 'em here!" Which is fine. As long as we're clear ...

Pretty, it was me and not Buffy who said you were peddling myths.

And being entirely familiar with the FWR boards over a number of years, I still maintain that the idea that posters, some, all or any, are man haters is a myth.