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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

999 replies

Scarletohello · 30/10/2014 22:38

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

OP posts:
LurcioAgain · 01/11/2014 16:25

Going back to an earlier bit of the discussion, I totally agree that we should try to avoid the keyboard warrior over-reaction tropes (embarrassing since it's quite a few years since I did any RL feminist activism, in the form of Trade Union campaigning for a childcare voucher scheme at work... I plead small child). And I think on occasion we have as a group got drawn into getting over-concerned about extremists on the internet (talking about the ones who simply post shit, rather than the sort who go in for "doxxing" feminists they disagree with, i.e. posting all their RL details together with incitement to violence) - sometimes we need to step back and say "hang on a minute, these people aren't representative of group X (whatever X is), they are in fact the Westboro Baptists to group X's mainstream Christianity."

The trouble is that while there are large groups on the internet engaging in the systematic silencing of women's voices and incitement to RL violence, it can be difficult for feminists to tell the difference between the Westboro baptist fringe types and the genuinely dangerous.

The other thing is that we can't win. Get upset about internet rape threats, and we're not engaging with the real world. But then when some of us focus on real life issues, we're told they don't matter either. (E.g. the poster upthread who said he/she thinks equal pay is unimportant... well, excuse me, it is massively impotant on two grounds. First off, in my real life, I'm the sole wage earner in my household - I keep the roof over our heads and put the food on the table. I'm damned if I see why getting the same fair rate of pay for the job is unimportant because I'm a woman. And second, like it or not, we live in a capitalist society, where, acquisitive or not, the amount you're paid reflects the value that society places on you. So to say across the board - because it is across all education levels and all social classes that there is a pay gap - that the pay gap doesn't matter is to say women are unimportant).

yackity · 01/11/2014 16:26

Robustly challenged is someone else's' ripped to shreds.

Absolutely agree 100%.

Perhaps contributors to FWR need to recognise that some women just aren't strong enough to be bordering on the militant, and can't cope with those 'robust' arguments.

This is a forum, not a debating program where I have an obligation to address each and every point of someone's argument.

I've had that on other boards and have told the poster politely that I had no intention of getting into a debate on the particular points they wanted to on a thread I had started, they couldn't understand why and really wanted to nit pick every single point, and wanted me to defend myself against all of their arguments. I've noticed that poster is on the FWR board so I hope it doesn't carry on here, but judging by this thread, I'm beginning to suspect it will.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 01/11/2014 16:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mmmfishandchips · 01/11/2014 16:35

Blistory don't be disingenuous You know I mean liking princess dressing up clothes, pink glitter and shit.
Boys stuff comes in black and mud colours not because that's the only colour they can be made but it's because that's the colour boys like.the only reason microscopes and telescopes are black is to appeal to boys, make them pink and they will appeal to girls.

PanIsNotAButterfly · 01/11/2014 16:36

thanks!
I actually meant the accusation of possibly being patronising especially re trolls, not dd at all. If I was being that she'd tell me unequivocally.

re the 'holding the FWR/feminists to a higher test' thing - imho it's a sort of fault of it's own success in a way. There is a pride, I pick up, in the level of debate that happens here. And yes sometimes as I read along a poster will say something, with an honest heart apparently, and thereafter one reads with fingers across ones eyes (not actually, of course...) knowing what may come their way.

Someone posted on one of these threads "you can;t be typed to death" - I'd disagree. In the same way great literature, or any book that inspires you, the written word if on a social media site or not, can deflate and damage as we are all vulnerable people with imaginations.

dessertisland · 01/11/2014 16:49

If we behave as we are accused, wouldn't you lot be in a little pile of shreds right about now

Oh please. Even a child faking an illness knows to put on a few pathetic little coughs when accused. The facade soon slips.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 01/11/2014 16:53

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LittleBearPad · 01/11/2014 16:53

Well that's a thoroughly depressing thought mmmfish. I don't know what we all did before all toys were made in a pink format.

YonicScrewdriver · 01/11/2014 16:53

Ouch, dessert.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 01/11/2014 16:57

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Mmmfishandchips · 01/11/2014 16:59

Well girls wished they were boys, so they could have a wider range of toys to play with and wider range of jobs to aim for.

LittleBearPad · 01/11/2014 17:00

Eh? Which girls wished they were boys?

FrauHelga · 01/11/2014 17:05

Hak - I didn't report personal attacks on one of the threads I felt hounded on because I don't report personal attacks on myself. I will, however, having thought about what you said, go and hit report and let HQ know how I felt about the comments made on that thread. So, thank you for that.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 01/11/2014 17:05

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OutsSelf · 01/11/2014 17:13

Okay Mmmm, you are saying that things which are equated with girls are regarded as inferior, and we should challenge that, and I'd agree with that. Where we disagree is in thinking girls.inherently like pink stuff, so we should try to appeal to them on that basis. I'd say that girls are.conditioned to feel that wearing or using pink things is the way to achieve the femininity that they feel is expected of them and we should tackle, rather than uphold that.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 01/11/2014 17:31

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MyEmpireOfDirt · 01/11/2014 17:32

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limitedperiodonly · 01/11/2014 18:00

Why should a female poster who comes on here and does exactly the same thing not be held to the same standard ? Why are we so scared to tell women, who resolutely deny that inequality exists, that they are part of the problem?

Oh yes, blistory. I've also noticed on other boards that when people express vaguely feminist opinions that they are told to get to FWR. Quite angrily, actually. That's what happened to me once. I was accused of being a RadFem once. Funny that, because I think a RadFem would kick me out of bed.

I find it weird and depressing that some women feel so threatened when other women question stuff.

I rarely post here and lurk periodically, btw. When discussions turn academic I zone out. But threads turn, don't they? This is acceptable on other threads and defended as banter, ironically by some of the people who don't like overtly feminist topics.

I've not noticed the aggression here that people on other boards talk about to the extent that they feel the need to hide the topic.

And I do remember Dittany. I mostly agreed with her. We had two run-ins but I've survived.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 01/11/2014 18:19

fwiw, I have never seen an fwr regular call a man a white knight for standing up for women. Doesn't mean it has happened of course, but I have seen plenty of mra trolls chucking that rather insulting name about- at male fwr regulars. I'm pretty sure that one of my fave male posters (DoctorTwo) here was called a white knight by one of Mike B*n's henchmen, for simply sticking up for women being equal members of the human race.

I've seen posters like dervel speak out against the punter/pimps that troll these boards. Hope nobody minds me naming names. I appreciate it every time.

I've seen male posters on here stop and listen when another man on a thread makes a point - a point that has probably already been made by a woman already - but a male voice telling them the same thing seems to somehow carry more. I guess that's all part of the problem too - male voices tend to carry more weight.

pan - I have both thanked you for your contributions to threads and stuck up for you when you were called a white knight, or similar - I have also argued furiously with you (when I was sabrinamulhollandjjones) - whether you remember any of those occasions I have no idea - but I tend to remember poster's names.

I do hate to see Mntters tearing this section (and each other) apart - I have learned so much from it -and I'd like to thanks each and every eloquent and passionate feminist who posts here. Thanks

AsAMan · 01/11/2014 18:19

I've kind of lost the thread a bt but someone asked if FWR is going to change to make it more welcoming (I think that was how it was phrased, can't find it now)

I really hope not. Feminism is not something I get to really discuss much in the real world with out people rolling their eyes or telling me about man hating feminist. So you know what, fuck it. Not everything has to be for everyone. And if we have to change so the people who refer to themselves as "not feminists" will hang out more, what's the point? Confused

I'm not going in to the Dog House and ask why they don't talk about cats more and make it more welcoming to cats..because that's not their thing. This is my thing and to be honest it keeps me sane.

almondcakes · 01/11/2014 18:33

There are now two different conversations on here going on where people are responding to whatthey would have liked the poster to have said rather than what they did say, and in one of these the language being used is quite hostile.

I would like to say that as well as saying angry behaviour is not okay, it would be a good idea to stop the 'writing for the lurkers' excuse. If somebody makes a point, can't we try and treat them like a person and honestly try and respond to the spirit of what they said?

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 01/11/2014 18:41

On the feeling 'attacked' for not being a 'good enough feminist' thing:

I'm a sahm. I have long hair, wear makeup, shave my legs (etc), wear heels if I want to, dress my dd in pink on occasion. I changed my name when I got married.

But if people want to talk about those things in the context of patriarchal society, I don't feel it's an attack on me personally - I'm interested in it as a subject for debate. These things are a feminist issue - they are all an issue for men and women living in a patriarchal society.

My own personal interest in feminism is male violence against women and women not being equals in terms of paid work/housework/childcare. I'm very aware now of the choices I made 12 years ago when I had ds1 and 'chose' to be a sahm because I earned less than dh. Would I make those same choices now I'm more aware? I don't know - I love my life -but it is true that I made the traditional default choice to married women who have children. I recognise that.

Caillin - I love what you said about sahms - I totally agree. Feminism (I think) in the main fights to have women's unpaid domestic work recognised and valued. Not all feminists agree - we are not the borg.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 01/11/2014 18:48

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BookABooSue · 01/11/2014 18:54

Not everything has to be for everyone.
^^ This I've read both threads. I don't usually post here but do lurk and replied to the other thread with no idea that my opinion of FWR was shared by other posters. I identify as a feminist but feel the board is rather prescriptive in its approach to feminism. However, that doesn't mean I think the board needs to change, to be more welcoming or more inclusive. There are lots of places on MN that I don't frequent.

I think it's important to point out that I wouldn't have volunteered my opinion on FWR if the thread hadn't asked the question. tbh looking now at the way everything has unfolded, I feel a bit conflicted about responding at all because I think the overall impact of the AIBU thread has been to provide an incredibly negative and divisive impression of feminism on MN. If Buffy hadn't vouched for the validity of the OP on the other thread, I would be questioning their agenda.

A PP mentioned that FWR shouldn't be held to higher standards than other boards and that's true. It is also true that adding a sticky with a list of terms and definitions might encourage more 'new' users who feel intimidated or a summarised reading list*. If you want to encourage new members iyswim.

There are more than a few posters on the AIBU thread who are AIBU regulars hence are not afraid of debate or confrontation. I don't think their perception that this can be an angry board is caused by some subliminal subjection to a patriarchal view of acceptable female behaviour. It's a bigger issue than that but also one that doesn't need to be addressed because regulars don't see or feel it, and the boards are shaped by their users as they should be.

*The EA threads are a good example of this.

PrettyPictures92 · 01/11/2014 19:17

I'm with a PP, I don't post here because I've seen folk get so wound up and outraged on trivial matters and feel that some women tend to act like all men are utter pigs and not worth the dirt on the bottom of your shoe. In my opinion that's not what being a feminist should be about when the very definition of feminism is "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."

Making out like all men aren't worth shit isn't about equality at all. It's just a way of saying "I'm better than you" and I completely disagree with that. We're all human, being born male or female doesn't make you superior. And for that reason I'll never class myself as a feminist. I don't want to be associated with that.

But in the same breath, I've seen some posters on here start fantastic threads about things I think are completely relevant to equality and I've avoided posting because there's times when it gets taken completely out of hand by the "men are scum" posters.

However that's just my experience and my opinion. I'm sure everyone has different experiences and opinions and that's completely fine too.