Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

Ah. I see, vesuvia. Thanks. That said, I think I'm rather like Scone in that I 'do' feminism all the time, and do see it as part of my purpose in life. Not remotely saying everyone should, just that some of us are like this!

That isn't true. I have more experience with some of the really big issues. I just don't get into them on here because I know people are more comfortable talking about pubic hair and the colour pink.

The poster who was talking about more important things than money, the board used to be more skewed tothat approach, but the main posters with that approach left.

I don't think people talk more about the little experiences because they have more experience of them, unless you are talking about issues beyond those of the UK population.

I don't see anger on FWR, well, at least not by the regulars towards other posters. Where I do see anger is towards the way in which women are treated and I'm okay with that because you need anger otherwise you are left only with despair. We've all tried being appeasing in real life, being conciliatory, using humour but it simply doesn't work. Facing up to the way in which women are treated is uncomfortable, primarily because at some stage, we have all been guilty of it.

But I see many posters stating that they have been torn apart, ripped to shreds, etc etc just fot posting on here. Just because it is their perception doesn't mean that it is a valid one or a true reflection of what happened on a thread. There is a tendency towards hyperbole. Many prejudge the FWR and this tends to colour their view of what is happening or being said.

And I've said before that women don't get a free pass just because they are women. On numerous occasions there have been vicious nasty trolling threads and time and time again, regulars have borne the brunt of it only to be accused of being inflammatory, not being conciliatory, of alienating men. And when the regular men posters come on and sympathise they were amazed to find out that they were judged for their silence, at the idea that by not joining with women, by refusing to use their voices, they were deemed to be complicit in oppressing women. Male posters were told in no uncertain terms that if they were not part of the solution then they were part of the problem.

Why should a female poster who comes on here and does exactly the same thing not be held to the same standard ? Why are we so scared to tell women, who resolutely deny that inequality exists, that they are part of the problem ? I think FWR do recognise and respect new posters who are feeling their way or who have a different view but why should they politely tolerate a poster who comes on here to inflame and goad ? I don't go on Christianity threads and tell posters that God doesn't exist. It would be twattish of me to do so. It's one thing to discuss with them why they do believe in God but it's an entirely different thing to tell them they are wrong. Guess which way round it happens in FWR ?

Any maybe I am angry but not at any poster or post but at the idea that feminism has to be inclusive of all. No it doesn't. Tolerant, yes but inclusive, no. Again feminism is held to unachievably high standards not expected of any other political theory.

The thing is not just about equal pay but how people express themselves as human capital. Averages are difficult because lifestyle choices and expectations about who will do what and when are different for both sexes. When more of us are directed into STEM during education rather than social sciences and men take on more child care then it will be easier to judge the differences but until then how much is discrimination and how much is the value of our human capital affecting what we are paid? There are some good videos on youtube from learn liberty and the Pager University but they may be considered wrong as they address overall all issues rather than just one stat.

'But I see many posters stating that they have been torn apart, ripped to shreds, etc etc just fot posting on here. Just because it is their perception doesn't mean that it is a valid one or a true reflection of what happened on a thread. There is a tendency towards hyperbole. Many prejudge the FWR and this tends to colour their view of what is happening or being said.'

That's where the difficulties lie in a number of areas though, where the perception of events, words and actions differ from the reality. Dangerous ground for everyoneto get into, but necessary.
Just because it is their perception doesn't mean that it is a valid one or a true reflection of what happened
Racism, disabilism, sexism and sexual assault, bullying...they all involve an element of perception of events by the victim and that may differ from another individual's perception of the same incident, and in turn they may both deviate from the facts and what actually happened. Does that make their judgements invalid?

I've never been ripped apart, attacked or made to cry by anyone on the FWR boards. I have been robustly challenged and ranted at, informed and educated, and been made to feel that my opinion was so opposite to someone else's that there could be no common ground for debate.
But because of who I am, I never took it personally, how could I? We don't know each other at all.

Well, to be fair, Down, there is usually something in the speech itself which is itself disablist racist, whatever, it's not just that someone gets to say in my perception that is racist - we'd explore and test that assertion. People do say they are "being attacked" when simply they are disagreed with though, and I think it's fair to explore that and not just silence disagreement when someone perceives themself to be attacked.

Because it's not a subject I enjoy.

Robustly challenged is someone else's' ripped to shreds.

I know what my views are but just as posting style varies hugely, obviously so do reactions to the same words on a screen. I don't pretend to know what the solution is.

Whether or not something is racist, sexist etc or not is generally defined by the group experiencing it. So it is a circular argument to say they said something sexist so something sexist was said. Somebody has to percieve it as sexist to start with.

Of course not everybody finds this board angry, or nobody would post on it, but many people do.

Every now and again I pop up and ask if somebody who feels they have been personally attacked or ripped to shreds could say what happened when they reported it to Mumsnet, and to link to the thread concerned. I've only ever has one taker- and that was a very complicated one where the individual concerned felt that her particular issue had been misrepresented.

You can explore and test in the right atmosphere, but I think it's important to recognise the feelings and hurt caused to the person who has been distressed before attempting analysis. And understanding that to them, their feelings are very real.
Like in my role as a teacher. If a girl who has had her bra strap twanged, or been squashed up on a bench by a boy, or who is uncomfortable about something that has been said needs to know that her perceptions have been taken on board by the adult and will be part of the discussion and hopefully the resolution.
Likewise disabilist language, marginalisation and general intolerance are often completely overlooked by those not affected, they are unaware, oblivious, sometimes offended themselves by your response.
you are being 'Professionally Offended' No, the perception of an individual about an offence against them is a valid element and shouldn't be reasoned away as not logical.

it's tricky that thing you say about reg male posters not speaking up, Blistory - the 'knight in shining armour' derision I've seen, the heavily-implied 'it's our business to deal with idiots, not yours'. Though 100% the messages given to men by other men is usually much more effective (via the medium of role-modelling) than men's female peers. Though it's realistic to take it that mal-intending trolls are not inviting behaviour change - just an opportunity to wind up the feminists.

Not tricky at all in the context of dealing with MRAs. They don't listen to women but they do very much depend on a support network of like minded individuals. It is very powerful for another man to point out to them that they disagree and to model appropriate behaviour and attitudes.

It's not to do with being a white knight.

Listen mate, you're upsetting the women and that's not on - crap response
Listen mate, your views are offensive and as a man I know they don't reflect the views of most of us. - supportive response.

And Pan, if you're ever in doubt about whether it's appropriate to step in, think about your daughter.

It's one thing to give her the skills and confidence to be an empowered woman but you must see the difference between letting her stand on her own two feet and leaving her to drown.

oh I do know that difference Blistory - it's a difficult judgement at times, esp now in her teenage years - it was so easy when she was a little one.
But yes also it's possibly tricky to not be open to the accusation of being 'patronising' IF one steps in.

But now it's cool, I'll just say Blistory said I could!"

I'm a feminist. I don't like a lot of the feminist threads because they seem to despise women and that's the female posters.two I've read recently made me think off a.
First was one about using modern names or married names and titles I left the thread when every one started agreeing that the only titles people should be allowed to use should be academic ones how fucking elitist is that.
The second was a dismal one about not praising your child or tell them that they look pretty. Or give them pink things, the only message there is that girlie attributes are second class.the opposite to what should be happening.

Girlie attributes ? I don't know what those are.

@ Pan - sticking my tongue out at you as I type.