Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

i'd like someone to talk to me about it, im not a feminist - i have different ideologies, i adore a great discussion but i dont think a proper discussion can be had, which is an odd way to be i feel. I am open to listening, thinking about things etc. and mumsnet has changed my viewpoints on many core things in my life.

I know that FWR is not to everyone's liking, but one thing is for sure, if you do succeed in changing FWR to be more comfortable for you, it will still not be to everyone's liking. Are you prepared to be on the receiving end of that inevitable criticism when (not if) it comes, and have to suck it up? If you are, then fine, but please don't kid yourself that it won't come your way.

Some people didn't like FWR when e.g. Dittany was posting. So she left. Now people still don't like FWR because Dittany used to post there years ago. Yet this seems to being raised as a reason to not post in FWR now. It seems like scraping the bottom of the barrel to me.

If FWR was populated exclusively by e.g. free-choice, sex-positive, trans-friendly posters, I think we would still have these "FWR isn't welcoming enough" threads. I believe, this thread, and others like it, aren't really about rudeness, intellectual elitism etc. - they are symptoms, these threads are really saying that FWR can never win, whatever form it takes. It's about how society conditions women to be our own worst enemy, with fights over everything from stay-at-home mums v working mums and breastfeeding v formula to second wave feminists v third wave feminists. It's patriarchy tossing the "crumbs" and the "starving" fighting over the crumbs.

FWR is like being a mum: always in the wrong.

What is "behaving really angry" though? I don't disagree with anything you've said here, Almond, but I do think people are saying others are angry or aggressive when they are from their own perspective, just disagreeing strongly - there's no anger from their perspective. Then you are in the position of policing someone's speech so they aren't interpreted as behaving angrily. There are things to say in debates like this which are necessarily challenging. In the example up thread I said x is the context I see that in, and "in that context, I think it is fair to say, your choice was not feminist". That was then seen as me being one of the shouting, intellectually masturbating, aggressive, excluding feminists. But how else can I say what I said? The response when I asked it was that I just shouldn't say it. No one could offer an acceptable way of speaking my perspective. And I'd posted in the spirit of understanding, and without anger. So, if people are interpreting the things that they find confronting as aggressive or confrontational, where does that leave me? Asking me not to behave angrily is in this sense policing content and not tone. I think it's actually more accurate to say, stop reading angrily because whether or not I am behaving angrily in your mind is to do with how you are interpreting my message more than it is interpreting my intent.

Custardo - you're not a feminist? As kindly as possible, bollocks!

I've read many of your posts on other boards, and regardless of what people think a 'feminist' is - you are all about women being strong enough and having enough of a sense of self belief that they stand up for themselves and do what is best for themselves.

If posters on here don't see you as a feminist, or make you feel as though you are a feminist, then they are in the wrong.

The feminist section is regularly the topic of threads like these - it has been since it was first created (kind of on the back of the lefty threads).

So things were done - certain posters were told that they were not welcome, the section was split into subsections, many posters left or stopped posting as much.

And yet FWR is still criticised - and the criticisms are always the same.

Anyway, I'm just sad to see that the current regulars are coming in for the same flack that the old lot of regulars came in for. I was one of the old regulars and one of the main reasons that I stopped posting as much was because of the criticism that the section attracted and I got put off by feeling that I had to defend it on threads like these. I also was put off by how very personal things became with regards to certain posters.

So, a lot of us stepped away. And yes, the section was pretty quiet for a while. Funnily enough the posters who repeatedly said that the didn't post in the section due to how unpleasant it and its regulars were, didn't come and post and breathe the life they said they wanted into the section.

FWR seems to have partly recovered and is busier than it was. And the criticism has started up again. Odd.

not identifying as a feminist, does not make me anti feminist or pro men or anti women. i have a different ideology and do believe in equality for all

Beachcomber, I do remember you from way back.

But this current bout of reflection on the FWR boards was started by someone asking the question ' AIBU To be a bit dismayed if 4 million women visit this site,why are there so few posts on the feminism threads?'
So posters started giving their reasons and opinions.

'FWR seems to have partly recovered and is busier than it was. And the criticism has started up again. Odd.'
Not odd, a consequence of asking that question.

I want to convert people. I want more people to be feminists because feminism is absolutely necessary to end violence against women.

Oh and I think that posts having a go at posters who are not here, and haven't been for some time (after having been told to leave) are really bad form.

If someone on the internet has managed to piss you off so much that you are making digs about them or posting about them years after the event (on a site they were told to leave), maybe it is time to consider that you might have been better off engaging less at the time...

Isn't it acceptable to remember people who had a huge impact for a very long time?

there's pretty much where I am Custardo - would accept other 'labels', such as 'socialist', or 'humanist' possibly, but not 'feminist' (tho' obv for some there is a debate that's had regularly IF a man can be a feminist anyway). Intervene professionally and personally to advocate/ensure womens rights in a very twisted world, ensure dd gets empowered as much as is at all possible etc. < was once on the end of a drunk blokes spoutings "You're one of those fucking feminists aren't you. Prick." Wasn;t the right time or environment to dissect political and philosophical dynamics.>

Phaedra, I see the feminist baby clothes thread as pretty light hearted, just as I'd see a thread on In The News about, I dunno, clothes for puppies as pretty light hearted.

It's FWR chat - sometimes it's pretty political, sometimes it's just chat.

Now, sex-positive is one of those lunatic feminist buzzwords that puts women off 'signing up' to feminism. Anybody in their right mind is sex-positive; it's also a very basic issue in feminism, even in our sexually liberal society which still shames promiscuous women. Sex-positive feminism bloody well ought to be called sex-industry feminism. Different kettle of fish.

I'm 'trans-friendly'. I am not friendly towards the rather confused () activists who insist on directing feminism towards their own interests. You could say I'm not transactivist-friendly ... though there must be plenty of trans activists who don't behave so illogically and discompassionately, so it might be better not to lump all trans* people together as misogynists at all.

Phew! Thanks, Empire :)

OutsSelf, I can't speak for other posters on what they do and don't find angry.

But as a very basic starting point I'd like to see people stop promoting theidea that behaving angrily is okay in feminist discussion.

I agree that whatever people appear here somebody will not like it. The board is much more anti SAHM than it used to be, and I don't like that at all.

But an opinion like that will simply be met with, feminists aren't anti SAHM, the patriarchy is.

But sometimes feminist groups are anti SAHM and sometimes they are angry, and the people making the criticism is right.

I'd like to think there were some kind of ideas about listening, trying to see the other person's perspective, tryingto make honest arguments not point scoring ones, not creating an ingroup etc that we could aspire to, rather than aspire to some kind of expression of anger.

I want to clarify my earlier post:

"Education of women about feminism or conversion of women to feminism does occur in FWR, but it's not the job or the duty of posters in the FWR section to educate or convince or convert other posters."

because

GarlicNovember wrote - "It's my job!"

SconeRhymesWithGone wrote - "I want to convert people"

I mean job in the sense of "9 to 5, paid employment".
I mean duty in the sense of "compulsory, even when you don't want to."

I feel more inclined to call myself a humanist rather than a feminist. For example, I don't really care if statistically men earn more than women, because I think as a human race there are other more important things that we need to work towards rather than earning as much money as possible. Having said that, I believe that if a woman really wants to break the glass ceiling career wise, then it is possible, many women have done it. Education for girls and women is incredibly important. Giving women freedom to be an active part of society is incredibly important.

However, in my opinion, we should be putting equal importance on family values, children's emotional stability, being a caring helpful society, caring for the environment, give mothers and fathers equal importance for a child. In short, family, as the core of society.

Downbytheriverside, nothing wrong with remembering posters.

I just think posting about how unpleasant you found a particular poster who was told to leave and who isn't here to speak for herself is akin to talking about someone behind their back. Giving up that poster as the reason why you can't possibly bring yourself to contribute to FWR, now, years down the line, is as vesuvia says, scrapping the barrel somewhat.

I agree with vesuvia as well when she says that FWR can never win.

Buffy, there have always been lots of posters who don't want to post in FWR - which is a shame. I can't help but think that it is inevitable because as I say the criticisms are still the same despite the population of regulars to the section having almost completely changed.

I'm not an academic, but I "do feminism" in my 9-5 job. Granted it's not part of my job when I am on MN, but it's hard to turn it off.