Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

I think it is, certainly, a lot nicer a space now. It was not a debating space when the two posters I've mentioned were here; and unfortunately that means that quite a few of us have been reluctant to return.

Oh, and I think it's a bit inaccurate to say well the feminist board is just too intellectual. I've got degrees up the wazoo. Feminist academics have been shouted off this section.

Can I ask a question?

There are things which I believe very strongly are anti feminist choices. Sometimes they are quite small things- but they are, in my opinion,part of the huge number of big and small things that perpetuate the status quo, and which prevent us moving towards a fully equal society. I think the expectation that women will take their husband's name on marriage and that children will automatically take their father's name is one of those things. It's just part of the patriarchal mind set. I do not believe that a woman is not a feminist because she such a choice- but I do believe that as a feminist she should think about the decision in those terms before she makes it.

How can I say all this in a way that won't make people say "well, I'm never coming on a FWR thread ever again?"

Your perception, though Spero, seems to be based on a fragment of a sentence whose context you seem to be ignoring.

It's really unfair, especially in the context you are complaining about how other people respond and post. I feel misrepresented by your description of what and how people post on FWR, but you are fully expecting me to play fair

Hello Buffy! I don't think I ever properly thanked you - I had pretty much given up on mumsnet when you sent me a PM and asked me to contribute to a thread. If you hadn't done that I wouldn't have been around to deal with all the hoo ha about the forced adoption debate and all the great things that came from that when a group of women came together to do something positive that will hopefully have a lasting legacy.

So good illustration of the law of unintended consequences and how those unintended consequences don't always have to be negative.

But by extension of that logic I suppose I also need to thank Dittany, because without her original abuse I would never have popped up on later feminism threads to moan about how beastly you all were...

"So serious question - is it a feminist choice to follow posters onto other threads and insult them when they disagree with you on a feminism thread?"

No, that wasn't a feminist choice, nor was it a good choice.

No, Outself my perception is based on years of the same old same old.

I accept I haven't read the full thread and I accept I find some parts of posts quite triggering, given my sensitivity after years of repeated exposure.

"So serious question - is it a feminist choice to follow posters onto other threads and insult them when they disagree with you on a feminism thread?"

Of course it wasn't fair and it wasn't feminist.

I know some feminists had a similar experience - StewieGriffinsMom for one.

So you didn't like Dittany, fine. It's really unfair to represent everyone on the FWR as if they were her and used her tactics

Dittany hasn't been around for ages. Is there any other board on MN that's judged by one particular poster who isn't here any more?

I feel really uncomfortable with the thought that what one feminist did let down all feminists forever, as it sounds so much like "that woman let down all women" with one piece of behaviour by one senior woman, when a senior man would just take the rap and resign, with no associated aspersions on his sex.

X posts, Outs!

Right, well, how can we have a discussion then? You're basing your opinion of what I say not on what I say, but on the "years of same old same old".

I did not treat any woman's views with contempt, no one explaining why they thought changing names post marriage did.. You've pretty much treated me with contempt, principally it seems because of what you thought of Dittany.

Buffy - I lurk, I usually find your arguments are just fine.. don't agree with all of them, but hey-ho who agrees with everyone all the time...

but there is this overwhelming feeling for me on feminist boards that if you do not agree with all things feminist - even the smokescreen feminist-lite crap (hair, makeup etc) - you must be thick.. "why don't you WANT equality?" - when really all you think is your pits stink more if you don't shave them....

I think it comes from the way that the same people all jump in with ever increasing intellectual argument - "haven't you heard of XYZ, the views on YZX have changed somewhat over the years"
Or terminology is used that is NOT common in ordinary people's lives - "monolithic dogma" - used on this page - sorry - don't understand - if I give a damn about the poster's content, I will go look it up, usually I just go to another thread...

'People might be reading this thinking I want everyone to rush in and say "oh no, not you Buffy, you are nice" but I don't want you to, because that means you're saying it's those other regulars that are the horrid ones who upset people. '

It's not about nasty and nice though. As my mother used to say to me; it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it. Some people might well be saying exactly the same things as you, but not in the same way.
I always enjoy reading your posts, even when I don't agree with you.

A woman's maiden name is her father's name"

Bit of a sweeping statement there. My and my brother's names for example are my grandfather's as our mother didn't change her name nor use either of our fathers' names.

I know at least 2 women whose names are the family name of several generations back who have never changed on marriage.

Re the question of not posting on the feminist board I agree the levels of mental masturbation and academic posturing leaves me cold.

I hate the expression "women in the real world" . We're all in the real world and it's just a lazy way of attacking and dismissing someone who is different from you. But I'll make an exception here. Much of what I read on here doesn't strike me as having much connection with the real world.

There's a painfully earnest thread about "feminist baby clothes" with suggestions of baby wear bearing "empowering" slogans. Really what the hell is feminist baby wear? Pink on a girl is presumably verboten on here but beyond that the simple answer is it's a baby - buy what you like the look of and avoid clothing made in sweatshops.

That thread and another whether it was inherently a non-feminist act ever to have a male partner had me rolling my eyes.

Going back to being relevant in " the real world" I've seen plenty of threads in AIBU dealing with real, live, practical issues of everyday feminism and sexism as opposed to the intellectual posturing on here. The latest Ched Evans thread for example was thoughtful and enormously uplifting.

I'm jumping in late to this discussion. I rarely post here because I don't feel that it reflects feminism as I live and experience it. I was raised by feminist academics with whom I frequently discuss feminism, and what I find with them but a lot less so here is listening to the experiences of marginalised women and being inclusive and respectful of their lived experiences.
It is reflects the views of women who are unemployed, in low paid work or carers or stay at home parents. It is welcoming to people who are kinky, or sex workers, or genderqueer. On FWR threads I see quite a lot of posts (though by no means all) explaining to people in these groups why they are wrong.

I don't find that a particularly inclusive or supportive environment.

I feel that FWR is a bit like Style and Beauty. There are some fabulous, welcoming, supportive threads but lots of people never post there because of the basic assumption that a £20k handbag is something to aspire to, and the patronising comments about mumsiness.

I think it is missing the point to say women doing thing x that men do not do (shaving legs, changing names) causes inequality and so is an unfeminist choice, how can I say it more sensitively?

The point is that a lot of people don't believe that shaving legs etc is a cause of inequality, and have a different feminist perspective that they would like respected.

Actually, not an opinion, but a question. Do the FWR regulars think anything about this board should change, after reading 30 plus pages (here plus the other thread)? Or does it serve its purpose as it is?

But to say something is not feminist when someone else thinks it is, isn' t disrespect, it's disagreement

good morning all, phew, I have just realised another reason why I don't post very often, when you post you join in an active a moving debate, you have to stay with it and keep posting, and that kept me up til 2 am and I am back on now.
I just don't have time to do that regularly!

For what it is worth, I have found Outs posts to be not remotely judgmental or argumentative etc, and have appreciated the debate.

Just to return to the name change one last time, one of the problems I have with the whole issue is that by choosing NOT to change your name you are by default choosing another set of values. I think this is true of many of the issue we debate. From the feminist perspective we see one side and it is quite distinct. But when you come at it from the other end, you are then forcing a different set of values on to me, ones that I don't like, hence the decision to name change.

In this case the value set is that you, your partner and your children are not one unit. That we are a random collection of individuals with different names. I have never heard of a satisfactory (for my value system) way of naming the children. Do they take dad's name? Mum's name? a third name (possibly a joint version of dad and mum)? All of these option to me says something negative about the family unit, and some of them are, to me hurtful and have other implications. For example, the idea that boys take dads surname and girls take mums. That to me raises another set of feminist questions about relationships and how we perceive them So boys 'belong' more to their fathers?

So, while I am happy to agree that taking dh name is not a feminist choice because of the patriarchal society. To me, when faced with a choice of 2 value systems, I have chosen one, and I believe therefore made pro- feminist choices for my children

I supposed ultimately the most feminist response to the name change issue would be for couples to choose and adopt a third name, coming from neither side.

well, interesting as this is, I must go and do something more constructive in rl!

I don't know if I would be considered a regular, but I think in light of this thread that the atmosphere should be less angry.

As somebody pointed out, it may not be angrier than AIBU, but lots of posters don't go on AIBU either.