Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

Ah - the thread moves faster than I can type!

But, there must be some point at which we can discuss choice and harm/ benefit to women as a class, otherwise we can't really do feminism at all. I have as much right as any to stake my claim on that.

Fair enough, point taken. I don't agree with you though that it's easy to do away with patriarchal naming practices. As 39steppes pointed out, in most of the Western world, a woman's 'maiden' name is her father's name. So if she keeps it and passes it on to her children, it's still the name of a male forbear that's being preserved. And the question of what surname to give your DCs is a tricky one too. Hyphenation is a good solution but only works for one generation.

I suppose what I found disturbing was that you told a woman who came onto the thread and identified herself as a feminist (or at least strongly implied that she was a feminist) that she had made an unfeminist choice, even after she had provided a thoughtful explanation of that choice. Of course you're entitled to believe that taking a man's name is unfeminist, but taking it upon yourself to tell a fellow MNetter and feminist that by making a choice she believed to be in the best interests of her family, she was having a negative impact on society at large ... well, I just don't see the point. You intimated that she hadn't thought about the wider implications of her choice. How do you know she hadn't thought about them?

Of course we're not going to reach a complete consensus on which choices are make-or-break feminist issues. But I think our views differ to the extent that you take many more choices than I do to be self-evident in their import. The black-and-white versus nuance thing, as you said.

To me, respecting other women's choices (within certain limits - FGM is one place where I draw a bright line) is part of feminist practice. Men have been telling women for centuries what they should and shouldn't do. Do women really need to carry on policing each other all the time? Let's respect, to the greatest extent possible, the different places we come from and the preferences and convictions that make each of us unique. Difference within collectivity, if that doesn't sound too utopian.

I really really have to go to bed now.

I think actually you hit the nail on the head when you said you insist on black and white and others on nuance.

In my life I have seem a lot of harm done by black and white. I find that people have more freedom to be people when it is acknowledged that nuance is both normal and healthy.

On the other hand (hey I am being nuanced, so I am trying to see both sides) we need people who are prepared to take that more radical stand in public debate.

I am also very aware that I write as a free thinking, educated women who has a home, kids, income etc etc. Part of that is actually having a lot of men in my circle who are quite well trained
There are many women around here who are simply not in that position, they are living much more oppressed lives for a variety of reasons. They do need people to fight in a more fundamental way, and the men they are involved with need a kick up the backside.

Ok, bit simplistic, but it is now 2 am and I need to go to bed!

Ok, that last post did not get across what I was trying to say at all, please don't quote it back to me, I will try and express it better tomorrow.

goodnight!

I kind of agree with the gist of the AIBU thread. I also agree that this thread's demonstrating what goes wrong. Most of all, I agree with this statement from page 1: "There is a fair amount of intellectual masturbation."

I'm the kind of feminist who calls out the sexism in everyday life. Some people are 'scared of saying the wrong thing' around me (good.) I even have hairy legs! But I've hidden this board. When I join in a conversation, it devolves into mutual academic stroking sessions. I'm not academic. I'm intelligent and widely read, but my degree's a low-grade one in a practical subject and way out of date. I'm more than happy to celebrate other people's learnedness, but it would be nice if those same people afforded equal respect to my better qualities, and those of others with different focus. I hate to say it, but this board's attempts to do so come across as patronising & dismissive: a wave of the hand, perhaps with a passing sadface. It's like being told "there, there."

As I've often said, including during a FWR-driven flounce, this board's been invaluable in clarifying my feminist thinking. I appreciate that. But, by god, I suffered for it. I have seen newer posters go through the same thing: she who sits, wide-eyed, at the FWR feet, drinking in superior knowledge, is welcomed and tolerated for a while; but heaven help the opinionated newbie! This is nowhere near as bad as it used to be - but it's still evident, and ultimately hostile. When I do join threads here it's usually to try and help out a poster who's making clumsy comments. I don't mind explaining things, neither do a handful of others here, so why not leave us to it instead of sneering and trying to set traps?

I very much like most of the FWR regulars these days, though this post makes it seem otherwise. I really wanted to suggest that FWR either needs to stop wondering why newbies don't come here, and settle into a mutual appreciation society, or give up the prickly superiority.

On a cheerful note, Mumsnet has far more feminist consciousness than any other general forum! I'm sure the existence of this board, and its members' forays into other topics, are a powerful driver for MN's across-the-board feminism :) It's an influential website; FWR deserves to be proud of helping to spread feminist awareness.

There are many women around here who are simply not in that position, they are living much more oppressed lives for a variety of reasons. They do need people to fight in a more fundamental way, and the men they are involved with need a kick up the backside.

Massively agreeing with this! (Nuance and all!)

"I still think our goal is freedom of choice"

This is where we are going to disagree, really. I think freedom of choice is only really relevant to relative freedoms, so do I have the same freedoms as others? Because obviously we are all constrained and rightfully so,by the effects those choices have on others/ the environment. And our freedoms should not impinge on the freedoms of others because impinging on others' freedoms to realise your own is a way of oppressing those others. I would definitely think of feminism as a class based analysis, rather than a politics of individual freedom.

To me the whole marriage, name changing, honorific debate is not about my actualising my individual identity - it's about my equality with men. Patriarchal naming practices perpetuate and enshrine my inequity with men. The choice that women have - which is presented as inherently empowering because it IS a choice, and for no other reason - enshrined and perpetuates their inequality with men. So in this case it's not just that the choice isn't actually granting any significant freedom, it is that is used to suggest my empowerment while enshrining inequity. So I am hugely distrustful of the very idea that choice is an inherent source of societal power or freedom

Ok, I am still here - the relationship board on here is often a shocking eye opener of the ways in which we still have a million miles to go. I find that at times my approach to feminism comes from my own experience, and I have to remember that my experience is for many women not typical.

having been brought up by a feminist mother, I, at times just don't get why some women put up with certain things, and it is good to be reminded that they have not had the fundamental training that my mother gave me in standing up for myself.

I agree with garlic that the influence from the fwr board over onto boards like relationships is very powerful.

I x-posted that with all the last posts.

Thanks for all the thoughtful engagement even though I said something which you found shocking.

I totally see what you're saying, Outs, about the choice of married surname being discriminatory. There's another way of looking at it, though. Everyone, regardless of sex or marital status, is free to choose a different name (in the UK.) Might it serve feminism better to promote this fact? A marrying couple can opt to share a surname of their own choosing; marrying men can adopt their wife's surname; we can all do what the hell we like with our names.

The not-feminist aspect of this 'choice' is that it's generally seen as a woman's choice ... and choices that are only available to women tend to be based in misogyny.

"A woman's maiden name is her father's name"

Well, you could just see it as her own name, the way the husband's is always seen as.his. My name is not my father's name any more than it is mine? This is part of the thing, we just don see women as owning their names, but men do. Down with that sort of thing!

Yy the relationship board rocks.

Thank you marifsa and garlic for saying what you say and thus restoring my faith in feminism. I agree with all you say, and you say it thoughtfully.

In my opinion, which you are free to hurl to one side with great force, some posters need to give careful thought to what they say and how they say it and ask themselves if demonstrating contempt for the views of other women is really a feminist choice?

If you don't care about alienating your readers, fine, keep on as you are. But if you are genuinely bothered about the lack of engagement with feminist threads then once again this thread is a nice demonstration of what goes wrong.

(Sarcasm alert, I couldnt care less if it's a 'feminist choice' - it's just an odd thing to do if the same time you are waving a banner for feminism and why it's so great).

I've just been shot down on yet another thread.

FWR is definitely not for me. There seem to be unwritten rules about how and what you post and that you have to fit a stereotype.

And 39steppes! Yes, to nuance.

But thanks all. Every few months I carrry out an audit of my current principles and beliefs just to check I am on the right track so I will see you on the next thread of this nature.

Where sadly, if experience of last few years is any guide, I will see that nothing has changed.

I may have missed the post, Outself, but I've had several friends who for one reason or another have renamed themselves by deedpoll. Creating a completely new name, free from family ties andlinks to the past.
Have you done that?

Where,frauhelga?

The girls beating up boys thread Hak.

S'ok, I get it. Me and my sexuality don't fit the stereotype so we aren't welcome.

That's fine, honestly, I just wanted some feminist debate and I can't/won't hide or deny what I am. Been there, done that and it made me fucking miserable. So, what do I do - keep challenging, keep being shot down, or walk away?

There seems to be some massive confusion over what "not a feminist choice" actually means.

As fas as I'm aware no one who says that means that the person making the choice is a not a feminist, or is a bad feminist, or is letting other women down. I don't think I've even seen anyone say that a non-feminist choice is necessarily a bad choice.

"Not a feminist choice" isn't a judgement on the value of something. It's just what it is.

frauHelga- I honestly think you misunderstood that thread. The OP was a troll goady individual who has posted exactly the same thing before, and the response you took exception to was a standard put down that I have often heard women make to aresy men. It was absolutely not intended to suggest anything about any particular group. It just means "There is not enough money in the world to pay me to do with/to you what I would willingly do with/to someone else fore free"

Hak - ok not to rehash what I've said on the thread but if I did - and I disagree, but to leave that aside - then surely there's a way to say it that doesn't involve verbally shooting me down in the way that I was?

I don't tell friends I think they are colluding with the patriarchy by changing their name or whatever, even though I think so

Back2two
"This kind of thing pees me off. I changed my name when I got married. And I'm delighted that I did. I will never regret it. It was a meaningful and powerful thing for me to do. Did I collude with the patriarchy? Um, no. I just stayed exactly the same feminist I had been since I was a girl. But I made a choice and that is my right as a woman."

So it pisses you off that I think it, even though what I'm pointing out is that I wouldn't say it to your face unless you invited the discussion, because I respect that it's your choice and I don't go around lecturing people what to do? That's a bit extreme IMO.

My point was that the FWR topic is somewhere I can explore and discuss things like this. Surely I'm allowed to have an opinion - and it's an opinion I can back up with logic - my logic being that feminism is about seeking equality with men, and in the namechanging situation, there isn't equality with men (however much "choice" you believe yourself to have, if it turns out 80% one women do it and less than 1% of men, I'm wondering how those choices come about and what the influencing factors are and it seems fairly clear to me that they are sexist factors). Therefore it's something I question and when I see other people doing it, I think they are perpetuating an unequal situation.

That's what I think. If people are going to be pissed off and intimidated because I think it, even when I'm careful not to get abusive or dismissive, then I don't see what else I can do.

Also, although I post on FWR and am quite strongly feminist, I don't like the idea that I'm lumped with with a load of radical feminists who all have the same views. I'm not anti-trans (though I can understand some of the arguments and see that some situations are questionable). I don't think hair removal, make-up or girls wearing pink is necessarily non-feminist and I have thought a lot about why. One of the things I like about FWR is hearing the range of people's views on feminism as it helps me to clarify/develop what I think and how to cope with sexism in the real world. The thread about Amal Clooney's namechange really enlightened me on a few things, slightly away from my hardline stance rather than entrenching it, for example.

For me it is absolutely not a clique, club or "us against them" thing, it's a meeting and debating place.

No, I haven't Down.

I.assume you mean me, Spero, and I.just want to check that you actually read my posts. Because I did not "demonstrate contempt" for.anyone's views. That is a misrepresentation of what and how I posted.

Ourself - that is my perception. I appreciate my perception is not necessarily reality. But I think some people get so caught up in the righteousness of what they say, they start to care less about the impact of their words and delivery on others. A shame.

This is interesting. Had a quick look on the AIBU thread that started this and found a poster complaining that when she disagreed with some feminist posters she was hounded off the thread and then chased round some other threads.

That is exactly what happened to me. I appreciate the abusive poster in question seems to have left - thank goodness - but she seems to have left an unpleasant legacy.

So serious question - is it a feminist choice to follow posters onto other threads and insult them when they disagree with you on a feminism thread? I was repeatedly followed around various threads for a few weeks so I could be told I was a 'rape apologist'.

And isn't it interesting that the only time this has ever happened to me in my 7 years on the site, the perpetrator of on line abuse and bullying was a feminist?