Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

And at risk.of intellectual wnakery or whatever, no one said the choice was unfeminist. They said, I said, a particular choice was not a feminist choice, having spent a number of posts contextualising that. There is a difference breezed saying something is unfeminist and saying a given choice is not feminist; one implies that something has an inherently unfeminist quality; the other says, I don't think you can claim that choice as feminist. And I stand by my assertion that the individual chooser' s perception of their choice is not an adequate criteria for assessing whether something contributes or detracts from women's equality with men as a class

Do the FWR regulars think anything about this board should change, after reading 30 plus pages (here plus the other thread)?

No, I don't.

This has all been hashed through before. When Dittany was hounded off -and she was hounded off by both trolls and MN regulars- she was not the only one. Many feminists left.

Did all the MN regulars who were bemoaning FWR being unfriendly come on and post here? Did they fuck! FWR became a ghost town for a long while.

If people want to post, they can post. It's an open board. If people don't want to post, don't post. Seems to me people should expect to have their opinions robustly challenged on all parts of MN.

This is my first posting on any of these threads - to me, whole bloody thing seems to be "Feminists on FWR board shocker"

The whole Dittany thing was pretty odd for a feminist board. I just assumed she was some sort of feminist big cheese in real life and that's why everyone was so deferential.

I think day- to- day, women are treated to sexism in ways which are quite subtle, a sort if subconscious acceptance of the situation.I see it in my workplace right now as the three women (including me) are battling for informal (ie free) training in a certain software package while three men, who are friendly with each other and have picked up the technical skills, act as gatekeepers to this knowledge. And these are hard skills which companies will pay for and the women are in danger if being left behind.

If I asked for advice on this I would probably go to te Employment section ratter than FWR - even though it's a feminist issue. Perhaps FWR is better with just the theoretical stuff ( what is a woman?) rather than the practical head/brick wall stuff.

"The point is that a lot of people don't believe that shaving legs etc is a cause of inequality, and have a different feminist perspective that they would like respected."

May be a small thing- but I do think shaving legs is a bad example- I don't know many feminists who are hard line on leg shaving! Substitute pubic hair.
There is nothing that makes people angrier with feminists than the suggestion that the removal of pubic hair is a feminist issue. And there really can be no doubt at all that it is.

X post 39, thanks you for saying that and thank you for continuing to engage with me even when I spoke in a way people found inflammatory.

I have similar problems naming my children, FWIW, it's all very inflammatory.

Um, unsatisfactory not inflammatory? Clearly I didn't have enough sleep...

"I don't know if I would be considered a regular, but I think in light of this thread that the atmosphere should be less angry"

I'm not sure it's possible to talk about feminist issues and not be angry tbh

' Perhaps FWR is better with just the theoretical stuff ( what is a woman?) rather than the practical head/brick wall stuff.'

Ouch! But a valid thought.
I do remember the Dittany days, and all the people who left for all sorts of reasons. Including feminist posters who felt that they couldn't hold a debate on the boards, as well as the pitchfork-waving mobs from other areas of MN.
Change is usually uncomfortable, but a shake-up is often beneficial.
I hope Dittany and Sakura found other places to share their thoughts and opinions without having to face the constant presence of others disagreeing with them. That's not a PA attack, I genuinely believe that they were very articulate, well-informed people who found debate and discussion challenging unless all participants were of similar views.

That makes sense MyEmpire, so not so much an angry atmosphere being a problem, but an aggressive one?

Ah I remember Sakura as well. She had a very interesting feminist perspective on being a SAHM and raising children as a female role which should be respected and valued, a long time ago so maybe am misrepresenting her.

As for my wee problem - we are storming the citadel next week and forcing them to block-in some time for training.

It is possible to talk about feminist issues without behaving in an angry way. You can say something makes you experience anger without then behaving angrily.

If people in any situation behave angrily, it immediately excludes anyone who finds being around angry people upsetting.

Anger on here is not directed at me but I still find the angry atmosphere very stressful.
As for choice, yes of course choosing roast potatoes rather than chips is not a feminist choice, and that is different to an unfeminist choice.

But I am not talking about judging your own subjective choices. My kids have my name not DH's. That is not a feminist choice in the same way chips are not. It simply has nothing to do with women's equality.

Anger. That's interesting. I feel as if I have experienced far more direct anger (as opposed to the existential anger that misogyny and the patriarchy engender) from people who are determined that things aren't feminist issues than those that think they are.

I feel that FWR is a bit like Style and Beauty. There are some fabulous, welcoming, supportive threads but lots of people never post there because of the basic assumption that a £20k handbag is something to aspire to, and the patronising comments about mumsiness.

I think that's interesting because I'd actually say that view of S&B is also wrong. There isn't a "basic assumption that a £20k handbag is something to aspire to" on s&b, just as there isn't, IMO, any basic assumption on the feminism topic that XY or Z is cast in stone. There may be some people who think so, but there are many different views and lots of useful exchanges and challenges to others's views.

If on S&B someone says "everyone wants a birkin bag" or "X is mumsy" then lots of people will disagree and explain why they disagree. FWR can be like that too and usually is on the threads I've been part of.

Buffy, I don't personally find you an angry or aggressive poster, quite the opposite in fact. Many people on this thread have said they like your posts.

There are people on here who find the feminist posters to be behaving in an angry way, people on here who find the less feminist posters (or whatever you want to call them) to be behaving in an angry way and there are posters on here who don't find anyone to be that angry.

What certainly is the case is that there are plenty of posts in this section where people justify why it is okay to behave in an angry way.

Anger is clearly an issue.

"That is not a feminist choice in the same way chips are not. It simply has nothing to do with women's equality"

Right, so it's fine to say that choice is not feminist, but we shouldn't argue against women who say their choices around the same issue are feminist choices?

I do think that the view that women don't have their own names but are named for their relationships to men is a matter of equality, and when people make choices around this they are simultaneously supporting or challenging this view, whether or not they were considering women's equality when they made the choice or not.

You know what gets on my freaking tits?

That every thread relating to feminism ends up discussing what I've chosen as my name and whether I fucking well shave my legs. Here it is again!

It's so tedious.

Something I've realised, I don't think I've ever been on a thread where it's men talking passionately and heatedly about something (eg. poverty) where they've been called out for being too angry and unwelcoming

No I don't either Buffy.

But I often see threads (all over MN) where someone gets horribly offended and I just can't see why. The other person was just putting a POV or explaining an argument or disagreeing with something. They weren't being personal or nasty.

But for some people, being disagreed with, or having a flaw in their argument pointed out, or having their actions questioned, is reason to take offence and find the other person aggressive or rude. I think if people are going to take that stance then it kind of rules out some kinds of discussion.

I like a robust feminist discussion with intellectual arguments flying hither and thither, it's like a workout for my brain and helps me progress with my own life as a feminist. If there are some people who find that frightening or aggressive, that doesn't mean it shouldn't go on. People can opt out.

I understand that a FWR topic should be for everyone but at the same time it's unreasonable to expect such a topic to be full of fluffy sweetness.