Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

I have got a pattern if you're interested hakulyt

So sorry. I resort to sarcasm when I am fed up.

I really don't know why I bother. I tell you why I won't identify as a feminist. I am not alone/unusual in my views.

And look at the response it provokes.

On this thread that's true. On the last name changing thread I was on, the tone from the OP was pretty hectoring.

Marfisa, it's not about making a choice that does or does not conform to society's expectations. It's about making choices that do or do not perpetuate structural and societal inequalities between men and women.

Okay, so the problem people are having is with me saying that 39's choice was not a feminist choice.

Why is that bad? I am asking genuinely, I am not trying to goad but understand.

Also what should I do when someone is doing something which I perceive as harmful to women as a class, but that person is a woman, and she's saying it's her choice? Do I have any right of reply to that? What should I be saying, if I'm not allowed to say it isn't a feminist choice?

And look at the response it provokes.

You being rude? I don't get it. People have dared to disagree with your opinions on things and that's led to whining that this is why you aren't a feminist. So good. You aren't a feminist. You're a humanist. That's great.

I actually think it's a good thing that some people don't identify as feminists. I find the pole dancing porn hound choice feminists really annoying. They don't help the cause in my opinion. You're not hurting feminism by not attaching yourself to it. I'm just baffled by why you are annoyed that a group of people who don't agree with you...don't agree with you.

Also, I said, "your choice was not a feminist choice"

Not "it / you are unfeminist"

And I said it after making clear that I thought for her, she was making the choice in an empowered way. But that her choice has unintended affects on others. I really don't see why this is so outrageous.

Outsself, not all feminists are going to agree that a given choice perpetuates structural and societal inequalities between men and women. Life choices are messier than that.

I find it amazing that you and others are jumping in to tell me what feminist choices are and aren't. Because you know what? I'm a feminist. A committed feminist. I've worked with feminists from countries around the world, I've lectured on feminism, I grew up in a deeply patriarchal environment and rebelled against it and suffered a major rift with my family and community as a result.

I'm not saying this because I believe a feminist has to have a specific set of credentials or because I think I'm a better feminist than anyone else here. I don't. God forbid. But my point is that feminists have different beliefs and different perspectives. It's not a monolithic dogma with a universal creed. So you can disagree with me as much as you like and tell me my views aren't feminist ones. But how you choose to label me is not my problem. I will continue to identify as feminist and to struggle to improve the lot of women (and men, for that matter) on both an individual and a societal level. And I'm also not bothered that spero chooses NOT to identify as a feminist, if what she is doing by rejecting that term is rejecting a particular brand of dogma. She's walking the walk, who cares if she's talking the 'right' kind of talk?

Debate is good. I have even been known to rethink stuff and change my mind as a result of it. However, informing other MNetters who care deeply about women's issues that they have made 'unfeminist' choices seems a singularly unproductive way of improving women's societal lot.

Its not the disagreeing with me that is the problem. If I had a problem with people disagreeing with me I would never get out of bed.

It is the way that I perceive the feminist movement to deal with disagreements that I dislike and am troubled by.

Thats why I highlighted your choice was not a feminist choice

So much of the feminist movement now seems dedicated to policing and pronouncing on the choices women make. It is depressing naval gazing for the most part, worrying over issues that would seem utterly trivial to 99% of the world, like whether or not you take your husband's name and whether, if you do you can really call yourself a feminist or someone who makes feminist choices...

I find feminism now is about people fighting for their corner to be the 'real feminists'. Being rude to and rejecting of people who don't want to play that game. And you act surprised when a lot of people say they aren't interested any more.

You said a woman's choice to take her husband's name has unintended effects on society at large. I can see that. But the choices women have to make are far less clear cut than you imply. Do you believe marriage is an unfeminist choice too? Maybe you do. What about women choosing to go into 'traditional' professions, like nursing or teaching or childcare? By making those choices, they're reinforcing social expectations. By your logic, shouldn't women all go for male-dominated professions, and become builders and bankers and scientists instead?

There are different ways in which to challenge societal expectations. One way of challenging them is to make choices that 'conform' in some ways and don't conform in other ways. I'm far less interested in whether a woman has changed her name on marriage than in whether her husband does his fair share of the domestic drudgery.

Not that name changing isn't a feminist issue. It is. But there is not ONE single, universal, correct feminist way to handle the issue.

But if you say that doing those things to your body is unfeminist, you're making a set of rules that are still using societal expectations as your foundation point. Society says that shaving your legs is a good thing for women to do, so if you don't do it, that's a feminist choice, and if you do do it, that's an unfeminist choice.

Bollocks to that. If I like silky legs, I'm going to shave my legs. I'm not going to do the opposite of what society tells me to do on every occasion; then I would still be letting social norms determine all my choices. See?

well said Marfisa, to me, being a feminist means releasing women to have the freedom to make any choice they want. Not choosing because of anything to do with societal expectations.

I get what OutsSelf says about other women seeing choices and it having an unintended effect. But I think all sorts of women making all sorts of choices for all sorts of reasons is the empowering picture, not women making one choice in order to kick against the establishment.

Might have to run off and do a wee bit of pole-dancing now. Because I fear I'm not Helping the Cause.

Thanks, 39steppes, I totally agree!

I did not say anyone made an unfeminist choice.

I laid out the context in which I saw.structural/societal harm of against other women as a result of a choice, and said that in the context that such choices can harm other women, it's fair to say that that choice is not a feminist choice.

I haven't labelled.anyone or said anyone is or isn't a.feminist. I have laid out a clear criteria for assessing.people's actions as feminist or not - i.e. do they support or harm other women, and then said that in that context, you could say that a choice was feminist or not.

I'd be pleased to debate that criteria with you but literally can't get my head round the idea.that I don't get to say whether I think a choice is feminist or not. I hardly stormed in and said, you aren't a feminist, you are, you can't be. I said why I think it is fair to assess certain choices as feminist or not feminist, and within that criteria, that I didn't think that that choice was feminist.

So. A woman chooses to perform FGM on her daughter. Feminist or anti feminist choice?

Can I be clear that I'm not saying kick against the establishment with your choice? I'm saying, if you make choices that harm other women, don't call them feminist.

I like the idea of lots of women empowered to make choices. But choices can harm other women. So they aren't necessarily contributing to the overall empowerment of women, even if an individual woman felt empowered by making the choice.

Um, you're really quibbling now, outsself. Reread your post of 00:10:26.

At least we've stayed on topic though. We've basically acted out the thread title, 'Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads'. Because I'm with spero: this thread is reminding me of why.

The discussion we're having now is interesting, it's stimulating, but it's also frustrating. I still feel like a gang of MNers are gathering round to tell me what feminism is and what it isn't. Because presumably I'm too thick/sexist/unenlightened to figure that out without the help of radfem principles.

I'm saying, if you make choices that harm other women, don't call them feminist.

And I'm saying, it's not always clear which choices will harm other women and which will help them. Because choices are complicated and can have multiple effects in multiple contexts.

I have just reread that post - it was the third one I made developing the point about how choices aren't necessarily feminist. It was not just me rocking up and shouting, no, you aren't feminist. I stand by it.

What do you think it says that I'm now quibbling about?

hakluyt, I see FGM as an anti-feminist choice, yes.

To repeat: when I say that not all choices fall neatly into the categories of feminist / anti-feminist, I DON'T mean that any choice a woman makes is de facto a feminist choice. Blimey.

Agreed, choices have multiple effects in multiple contexts. I'm not convinced that that means I shouldn't say something was not feminist. Especially if it is being claimed as feminist. By your logic, no one should really have the right to say something is feminist/ not feminist.

I take the point about nursing and childcare. I'm not sure that stopping nursing or childcare is really an option though, but it would be easy to do away with patriarchal naming practices, though, right?

Agreed I tend towards the black and white where you are right to insist nuance. But, there must be some point at which we can discuss choice and harm/ benefit to women as a class, otherwise we can't really do feminism at all. I have as much right as any to stake my claim on that.

" I still feel like a gang of MNers are gathering round to tell me what feminism is and what it isn't. Because presumably I'm too thick/sexist/unenlightened to figure that out without the help of radfem principles."

That doesn't seem to me a fair assessment of this discussion. No one has said or implied any of those things you are "presuming". Also, no one is saying what is or Isn't feminist. We are discussing whether one choice someone made on the basis of how it played out in her own life should or should not be described as feminist. That is not everyone telling you what feminism is or is not.

"And I'm saying, it's not always clear which choices will harm other women and which will help them. Because choices are complicated and can have multiple effects in multiple contexts."

Agreed. But that is not the argument you made, and you didn't engage on whether the example we discussed was or was not harmful in the way I suggested. There was only straightforward horror that I could say something as heinous as "that choice was.not feminist". Which, just to reiterate, I did not say without first making clear the criteria through which I would make such an assessment - I didn't just say, I'm a feminist so I get to say

OutsSelf - sorry, I think some things other people have said on my behalf are being landed at my door.

I understand what you have said about why a particular decision is viewed as unfeminist, and the context in which that might be, and that you have not said that I am not a feminist.

I have laid out a clear criteria for assessing people's actions as feminist or not - i.e. do they support or harm other women, and then said that in that context, you could say that a choice was feminist or not.

OK I understand that criteria. But I still think that our goal is freedom of choice, and if we aren't careful we get into a new set of rules, that you can or can't do something because it is or isn't a feminist choice. I think it doesn't allow women the freedom to be.

I would say that the criteria of whether a choice is feminist is a combination of actually quite murky factors, of whether or not it is a free choice, made by the woman for her own reasons, how it impacts on others and so on. Any choice I make at any time can harm someone else, often unintentionally, how are we always to know? And of course in the short term, a very 'feminist' decision may actually cause more harm and distress, despite it being, in the long term, or for the sake of society, the better decision.

I don't buy the analogy of FGM. In life all our choices should be subject to the criteria of basic humanity. While I acknowledge that our definition of that may have changed over time, FGM is not considered acceptable of humane.