Why a lot of women don't come on the feminism threads...

[Scarletohello]

So I posted this question earlier, why don't more women come on these threads ( considering how many women are on MN)

The replies saddened me. Are we doing something wrong? I remember a thread some time ago asking how many women lurk on the feminism threads but never post. I was shocked by how many women read these threads but didn't feel able to join in. I don't think feminism has to be particularly intellectual and I would like to be able to educate more women about feminism, how it affects women in many different areas of their lives, offer support and talk about what we as women can do about it.

Please have a read of this thread and tell me what your thoughts are. I want us to be as inclusive as possible as it affects us all...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2222959-To-be-a-bit-dismayed-if-4-million-women-visit-this-site-why-are-there-so-few-posts-on-the-feminism-threads

Genuine question, how can changing your name be seen as a feminist action? Again I did change my name, but I see that it was not a feminist action

I'm not so sure about that. I suspect it's because being a feminist is actually pretty bloody difficult. And it involves putting your head above the parapet and dealing with the flack. And I am not at all surprised that many women don't want to do it. For many women the status quo is a comfortable and happy place to be. Why on earth would you want to change that?

The reason I won't/can't identify as feminist, is that the activities of the radical feminists have so revolted me. While women and girls all over the world are trafficked, enslaved and mutilated for the pleasure and convenience of men, they sit around hating on other groups for 'not making the right choices' - like daring to want to change from a man to a woman.

Disgusting! not right! not allowed!

A group of privileged women debating how they can lock others out of their privilege.

I think a lot of feminism propounded by the Western secular elites is becoming irrelevant naval gazing. A lot of energy spent policing who is 'really' a feminist and who is making the 'right choices'.

Fuck that. Deal with the real and massive injustices and inequalities that are happening right now.

I am fascinated that nobody seems to be prepared to answer the question "is any choice made by a woman a feminist choice?"

"No no no, of course any choice a woman makes is not automatically a feminist choice! Who ever implied that?"

Well, some people seem to get very heated when the suggestion is made that they have made an anti feminist choice.

waxed my fanjo, shaved my legs, worn make up,

They are societal expectations only for women. And all about a woman's level of attractiveness. No, they don't rank like 4-6 to me either but I don't think a case can be made they are feminist choices

I am not answering the question because it seems to me to be a profoundly uninteresting question.

My beef is that there is a certain type of feminism that seems to demand only certain types of choices and gawd help you if you make the wrong ones.

For example, if 39steppes had said, 'I chose to take my DH's name when I married because he is a man and I am a woman and women should take their husbands' names' ... well, that would pretty obviously NOT be a feminist choice.

But she has defended her choice quite eloquently. She has thought about different issues and decided to prioritise some issues over others. For people to step in and tell her that she's not a feminist is damn out of order.

"Fuck that. Deal with the real and massive injustices and inequalities that are happening right now."

I agree. But I see no reason why it's an either/or. What are you doing about those massive injustices and inequalities, by the way?

they sit around hating on other groups for 'not making the right choices' - like daring to want to change from a man to a woman.

Literally couldn't give a fuck about what someone calls themselves. But as I don't believe in a "female brain" I don't believe that a person can change form a man to a woman. this is the definition of transphobia to transactivists

Look, I think anyone can decide what is feminist or not by assessing the effect of something on women as a class. Assessing something purely on the basis of whether it's good for you is not the same as thinking politically. No one needs anyone else to tell them whether they are feminist or not - but thinking purely about your own perspective and claiming it as feminist without thinking about how your perspective and choices affect other women? The whole basis of that claim is that a woman made a choice - is that really the ultimate realisation of feminism?

As a self indentified humanist I am attempting to deal with the inequalities and injustices I see perpetrated every day by the structural inequalities of society by providing free advice and assistance to those who need help with family law problems. I probably spend about 3 hours a day on this endeavour.

Is that ok? Or should I instead be crocheting some placards to say Down With Transexuals? Would that be a more 'feminist choice'?

"But she has defended her choice quite eloquently. She has thought about different issues and decided to prioritise some issues over others. For people to step in and tell her that she's not a feminist is damn out of order."

Nobody, as far as I know, has told her she's not a feminist.

But perpetuating the trappings of the patriarchy (sorry about that sentence) is an anti feminist thing to do. If you want to do it, fine. But do it with your eyes and brain wide open.

I am not answering the question because it seems to me to be a profoundly uninteresting question.

Ah well that's me told. It's so uninteresting you might want to stop harping on about it then?

Interesting you should ask that, hakluyt, because I believe spero has done quite a lot to help women and children and families with legal issues.

(That's a vague recollection - I'm not a stalker, spero, I swear! )

Spero seriously. It's not FWr who is full of ranty angry people. I love it that it's always the most aggressive posters who complain that FWr isn't hospitable enough for them. It's almost like you're so used to shouting people down you get confused when it doesn't work.

No one shouted disgusting! Not allowed!

I.responded to that issue because it was raised by that poster. It's not fair.to complain that feminists are too quick to say x is not feminist, but correspondingly have a list of things that count as Real Feminism that if you aren't directly talking about you can't be feminist.

Thank you thread for proving my point once again.

The reason I won't identify as a feminist, as the energy manifested by feminist arguments is negative and unpleasant.

I note I am 'harping' on now.

Perhaps I will shortly become 'shrill' or 'hysterical'

I can't identify with a movement that now appears to be based on negatives. You can't do this and be a feminist etc.

My credo is that everyone should be given the opportunity to be the best they can be. I don't care if they have a penis or a vagina. And I won't oppress anyone for having either.

Nobody (on this thread) is telling her she isn't a feminist. They are saying that her choice (mine too, by the way) is not a feminist one. Which it isn't. I have reasons for wanting to have the same name as my husband. The reasons why the name we went for his name rather than mine were pretty much down to societal expectations really. Conscious or unconscious, I'm pretty sure that's the same for most of us who change our names. Otherwise, the proportion of men changing theirs would be a lot higher...

"For people to step in and tell her that she's not a feminist is damn out of order."

Did anyone actually say that?

Look, of course I know that shaving legs and wearing make-up coincides with certain societal expectations for women. That society has those expectations is wrong.

But if you say that doing those things to your body is unfeminist, you're making a set of rules that are still using societal expectations as your foundation point. Society says that shaving your legs is a good thing for women to do, so if you don't do it, that's a feminist choice, and if you do do it, that's an unfeminist choice.

Bollocks to that. If I like silky legs, I'm going to shave my legs. I'm not going to do the opposite of what society tells me to do on every occasion; then I would still be letting social norms determine all my choices. See?

ooo! now I am confused!

Deja vue from the last thread.

views were sought. I offered mine. And the response is thus. No grace, no interest, no attempt at understanding.

Sadly, this is how feminism seems to me. And it is my fault for my 'confusion'.

No one was threatening or aggressive or saying, God help you, you've made the wrong choice, Spero. Why is it not okay to say a woman's choice isn't always a feminist one. Did you read anything I said, apart from that?

I wasn't aware of the work you do, spero- that's amazing. Shame you couldn't resist "Is that ok? Or should I instead be crocheting some placards to say Down With Transexuals? Would that be a more 'feminist choice'?"

OK, a correction: no one told 39steppes she wasn't a feminist. Outsself told her she had made an unfeminist choice.

I bet there are probably more name changers than name stayers on FWR TheFallen. Same with shaving makeup the whole lot.