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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Would you get rid of the titles "Miss" and "Mrs" and use just "Ms" if you could?

397 replies

peppaistired · 26/10/2014 15:36

I would like to campaign somewhere about this. I don't see the point in having so many titles around for women, and only one and simple for men: "Mr"
After all, why should people or society care if we're married, or single? They don't seem to care in the case of men, why is there still an issue with women's marital status?

OP posts:
vestandknickers · 27/10/2014 10:00

Noddy. You may not feel pride, but that doesn't give you the right to say that others should not.

I have been happily married for over 20 years. I am proud of that.

If you don't like that, tough. Makes no difference to me.

OutsSelf · 27/10/2014 10:08

Glad you feel proud Vest. What about the women who aren't respected to the same degree as you, just because they're unmarried? Should they all go and fuck themselves because you're all right?

PumpkinGordino · 27/10/2014 10:14

the other problem with the proud thing is that it suggests that women who marry but don't become mrs h'sname are ashamed of their marriage or their association with their h

OddBoots · 27/10/2014 10:16

Having seen people endure very unhealthy relationships in order to remain married often bringing up children in toxic environments to do so I struggle to be proud of my marriage.

I am happily married and feel privileged to have someone with whom I have strong mutual adoration but that's not something I feel so proud of that I need to have it define my status relative to other women.

rosy71 · 27/10/2014 10:20

I use Ms,however I struggle to get others to do so unless it's written down. People who know I'm not married call me Ms and people who don't tend to address me as Mrs. This (Mrs) particularly started happening when I had children.

I prefer Ms because obviously I am not Mrs but Miss makes me feel like a 12 year old. Imo, a single title for adult women (whether Ms or Mrs) is the best idea.

rosy71 · 27/10/2014 10:21

Whoops - I meant people who know I'm not married call me Miss.

OutsSelf · 27/10/2014 10:22

Or men Oddboots. Everyone insisting they should have a choice are correspondingly insisting that all women are unequal to men in relation to institutions.

MaryWestmacott · 27/10/2014 10:23

I don't think there's anything wrong with being proud you are married. I am sure my DH's old colleagues from when he worked in Luxembourg and Germany are equally proud of their long, successful marriages, and using Madame or Frau for all adult woman, reserving Mademoiselle and Fraulein for female children/young woman, doesn't deminish their marital success.

My DH is proud of his marriage to me as he should be, he's been very lucky , I'm sure the fact he doesn't have a title that tells the world he is married reduces that.

Mrs used to be used in the UK in a similar way for higher status working woman. And Miss would be used for some woman regardless of marital status.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 27/10/2014 10:33

I am not proud of being married, but my marriage, and the blessings associated with my relationship with dh are very precious to me. I know I need a sense of security, and marriage gives that to me in a way that any other form of partnership would not.

I don't expect anyone else to feel that way - but I would be damaged if that security was taken away from me, as I feel it would be, to some extent, if I could no longer use Mrs.

I know I am more sensitive at the moment - I have been very depressed and am very newly recovered from my latest bout, my MIL will probably not survive the week (bastard cancer), I probably have type 2 diabetes, and the dog needs surgery on both back legs (ruptured anterior cruciate ligaments) which will take 6 months in total and will need lots of care and rehab - so finding out I am the Great Oppressor too has been the final straw. It might be nice if the people using that term, and the person who has directed it specifically at me, would remember that there is a real person on the other side of the screen, with real feelings who can be badly hurt by their words.

Mitchy1nge · 27/10/2014 10:38

I hope it (mrs miss etc) just fades out, along with lots of other historical weirdnesses and anomalous things that have no place in a more equitable society (marriage itself, maybe) should we ever evolve into one, but am not in favour of any sort of official move to stamp out these titles. People will stop using them if they don't want them, but they are allowed to take actions that don't particularly advance women as a group if they want.

PumpkinGordino · 27/10/2014 10:39

SDTG it sounds like you are having a shit time, i'm sorry

it is not you personally who is the Great Oppressor. but you are contributing to and upholding the structure that oppresses other women. to an extent, we all do, it is difficult not to given how society is geared up. obviously in this particular instance this part of the structure works for you, and gives you what you need in your situation. many women make decisions in the same way, in many instances the alternatives are too uncomfortable to be borne. but analysis of this and its harm to women as a group is still a reasonably thing to do

OddBoots · 27/10/2014 10:41

I used to feel as you do SDTG, in fact it's a big part of why I rushed into marriage at a very young age (and while still at sixth form!) and I remember the confusion and upset I felt when I realised the bigger picture. I only did so when thinking about what freedoms I would like for my daughter.

I'm sorry that you are going through a bad time and thinking about this makes it worse for you, maybe you need to step away from this discussion and focus on other things for now.

This is not something for which any individual person is to blame, it is very hard to see beyond what we have been socialised to see, it will be different for others but it is certainly taking me years and years to shake off my assumptions.

temporaryusername · 27/10/2014 10:52

SDTG, I am so sorry you've found this personally upsetting. I don't think anyone wanted that to happen. I am very sorry to hear of everything you are going through. I grew up in a strong 'debating' tradition and DP and I debate issues on which we are extremely opposed, but it isn't personal at all. We often end up saying something like, 'well, I just can't associate with someone who thinks that', 'neither can I, you are a total disgrace', 'right, what shall we have for tea?'.

I don't think that because someone is proud of their own marriage, it necessarily means that they think being married in general is superior. I am certain many people do think it is superior, but others may just be proud of making a choice that is right for them without assuming it is right for others.

This is partly the difficulty of trying to change a patriarchal society when we have been brought up within it and are still operating in it. I would feel disadvantaged and damaged if I couldn't wear make up or shave my legs, but at the same time I feel uncomfortable with the fact that women are expected to. How do you balance what feels best for you in certain circumstances with what feels true to a bigger goal?

temporaryusername · 27/10/2014 10:59

ps. I know that most women who prefer Mrs do not have any conscious intention to oppress anyone. Many, especially the older generation, would be amazed and hurt at the suggestion because they associate the title with personal loves and commitments. I respect that, but am aware it interacts with a larger and problematic system.

Siarie · 27/10/2014 11:00

No I like them.

Chachah · 27/10/2014 11:05

I so would. I am French and our admin got rid of "Miss" entirely last year, such a good thing. There is absolutely no reason why women should be expected to disclose their marital status when they are simply stating their identity. Especially when men are not.

My favourite thing about having a PhD - I get to bypass the Miss/Mrs/Ms crap on most forms.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 27/10/2014 11:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BlueKarou · 27/10/2014 11:17

I was filling out an online form last night - house insurance, so nothing where gender should hold any significance - and noticed the options on the title drop down included 'Dr (Male)' and 'Dr (Female)' which I found a little odd.

All that said, I enjoy being a Miss. I enjoy the challenge it poses to people, like the bank guy on Saturday who seemed surprised/impressed that little old me could afford a 3 bed house all on my lonesome.

I quite like that we women have a choice. We live in a world where, wrongly, so much more is expected of us than of our male counterparts, and so many labels are thrown at us. Having the ability to decide whether we want to become a Mrs when we marry, or if we prefer being a Miss or a Ms is actually something I find quite liberating.

This isn't a very feminist way of thinking, I suppose - being content with it being one way for the men and another way for the women, but I wouldn't want to lose a title I'm happy with to be given something universal, and I don't know if there's any reasonable likelihood of inventing multiple titles in place of Mr which would be accepted and used. Not sure quite how to wrap my head around that.

mausmaus · 27/10/2014 11:23

I quite would like to see a 'female' / 'male' box without any titles.
tbf just the names should be sufficient, no need for a title at all tbh

vestandknickers · 27/10/2014 11:37

Wow outself how nasty.

How does me feeling proud of my marriage diminish anyone else?

Who says women who are not married are any less worthy of respect? I certainly didn't say that.

I'm not making judgments about anyone else, I'm just explaining why I will continue to use "Mrs".

No need to be so rude.

Chachah · 27/10/2014 11:40

I like your username, BlueKarou :-)

the way I see it, the system does not give women an extra choice, it forces them to disclose personal information about their relationship status.

I understand that you can choose to stay a "Miss" even if you're married, but the end result is the same - the people who look at your form will form an opinion of you as "an unmarried woman". Whether or not that's accurate.

bealos · 27/10/2014 11:40

[not read whole, very long thread :)]

I'm a Ms and would happily have Ms everywhere! I have to correct call centre types all the time.

WhoKnowsWhereTheSlimeGoes · 27/10/2014 11:51

I didn't see anything nasty in Outself's post. An individual being proud of their marriage (or children, or achievements) of course does not diminish anyone else. Someone upthread said they get treated with more respect when they use Mrs, that says it all to me, if using Mrs gets more respect then using Ms or Miss must by definition get less respect. Whereas universal use of Ms would diminish no one.

vestandknickers · 27/10/2014 11:55

Glad you feel proud Vest. What about the women who aren't respected to the same degree as you, just because they're unmarried? Should they all go and fuck themselves because you're all right?

That's not nasty?

Cripes! Shock

noddyholder · 27/10/2014 12:07

Vest i didn't say I didn't like it. I have been in a good strong relationship 23 years but feel no need to acknowledge that with a label and so I am Ms on forms and use my christian name the rest of the time.