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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you get rid of the titles "Miss" and "Mrs" and use just "Ms" if you could?

397 replies

peppaistired · 26/10/2014 15:36

I would like to campaign somewhere about this. I don't see the point in having so many titles around for women, and only one and simple for men: "Mr"
After all, why should people or society care if we're married, or single? They don't seem to care in the case of men, why is there still an issue with women's marital status?

OP posts:
Momagain1 · 26/10/2014 23:44

I am from the Southern US, where Mrs, Miss, and Ms all sound like Miz, so i vote Miz as the universal grown up lady default title.

IPityThePontipines · 26/10/2014 23:46

It's aimed at everyone using it. It devalues the word to the point of meaninglessness. If titles are oppressive, what's living under a brutal dictatorship? Really oppressive? Oppression plus?

That something is inequitable is reason enough to want to change it, you don't need to make hyperbolic claims to justify wanting that change.

SconeRhymesWithGone · 26/10/2014 23:50

Me, too. Momagain1 I think it's one of the reasons that it made Ms. more palatable in our relatively conservative society. We'd been saying Miz for generations. Smile

ZombiePuffinsAreREAL · 26/10/2014 23:54

I actually rather love the way people from the Southern States say Miz. Sorry... as you were.

EBearhug · 26/10/2014 23:55

Can someone explain to me how I am contributing to the oppression of women by taking my husband's name upon marriage and using the title 'Mrs', please? (Actions which were taken after considerable thought and discussion between my husband and I - no one forced/expected me to take his name or assumed I would)

Because men don't have to go through it. Men are just Mr. They don't have to decide to use another title (unless it's one to do with profession, like Dr or Prof or Rev.) No one ever questions a man if he says he's Mr Smith. They don't ask him if he's married, or divorced, or what his previous surname was (which he could have; I know one man who changed his surname to his wife's on marriage.) Many people do assume that you will take your husband's name when you get married, that you will be called "Mrs" on marriage, that you have never married if you're "Miss" or that you have been divorced or are lesbian or even feminist (horror!) if you are "Ms". Many webforms will not accept blank for the "Title" field - they force you to make a choice, even when it's entirely unnecessary to whatever service you're signing up for.

Men merely have to identify as male and are automatically assigned all the privileges that our patriarchal society allows them just because they've got a penis. Women have to identify as female, married/unmarried, and whichever choice they make, someone will judge them for it. You'll be judged for being married, you'll be judged for not having married, you'll be judged for being divorced, for changing your name, for not changing your name. Men never have to go through any of this. If there were one single title for women, then women wouldn't have to go through most of this, either. While we insist on using gender-based titles at all, then women will still be judged for being women, but at least we could get away from all the rubbish about whether you're married or not, and people could be more fairly judged for how they actually are, rather than on stereotypes about what single women are like (which also depends on age), what married women are like, what divorced women are like.

Everytime a woman chooses to use Mrs when she gets married, she's helping make sure that all women can be judged on the decisions they make about which title to use, because it means separate titles won't die out and we will all continue to be judged on it. And it doesn't matter whether you're proud of your marriage or never having got married, or whatever else - your opinion doesn't count. It's the rest of society who is judging you and making assumptions about you just because you have chosen Miss, Mrs or Ms. They're judging you, me and every one of us because of it, and my choice is not to be judged until they've more evidence about what I'm actually like to base that judgement on.

No titles is even better, because in the majority of cases, it's not relevant whether I'm single or married or ever have been or ever had a different surname. Institutions and others who actually need to know could just ask that separately - are you male/female/other? (can't remember exactly what forms say these days), are you married, have you ever been married? Have you ever had any other surname? (Because getting married isn't the only reason to have another surname. That is the information they might actually need, not the title, and if they don't need to know that sort of information, they don't need a title at all.

elfycat · 27/10/2014 00:15

I automatically filled out Ms on forms for my DDs. They were 3 and 5 yo and the woman behind the bank counter said 'oh did you mean to put Miss?'

I always put Ms as I have my original surname, so I'm not Mrs and I'm not Mrs or Miss . It was habit that made me fill DDs titles as Ms. However the condescending tone of the bank employee had me pinning her with a death stare and saying ' No'.

I'd be happy to ditch the whole title thing.

EBearhug · 27/10/2014 00:30

Banks can be a bit rubbish about accepting the idea that you can use Ms without ever having been married or divorced or even changing your surname.

AbbieHoffmansAfro · 27/10/2014 00:41

I want to get rid of the tiles Mrs. and Ms. and just have Miss. Or perhaps Madam (no abbreviation).

AbbieHoffmansAfro · 27/10/2014 00:41

Tiles? Titles!

sandgrown · 27/10/2014 00:43

Got divorced but kept the title Mrs. Hate Ms .Probably because when I was younger only raving feminists and lesbians used it. I have more important things to worry about!

ItIsSmallerOnTheOutside · 27/10/2014 00:45

In my head...

Mr = Penis
Miss = Unowned vagina
Mrs = Owned vagina
Ms = Vagina

I'd definitely rather be just Vagina. Mx sounds even better.

ItIsSmallerOnTheOutside · 27/10/2014 00:49

I don't actually really know what Mx but I read about it up thread.. Ideally no titles at all for me.

ItsAllJollyGoood · 27/10/2014 01:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EBearhug · 27/10/2014 03:09

But we have a choice about whether to accept the world the way it is, or to try to improve it. And the fact you do get more respect for being a Mrs is exactly why we should try to change it. I don't deserve any less respect just for being unmarried. And it's no one else's business whether I am or not, unless I choose to tell them.

YonicScrewdriver · 27/10/2014 07:12

"You may not like it but that's just how the world is"

Ah well, that's feminism fucked then. And environmentalism. And any other political movement.

Shall we all go home?

WhoKnowsWhereTheSlimeGoes · 27/10/2014 07:19

That is exactly why it needs to go, it's just another way for men to divide and conquer women and a lot of women just can't see it.

PumpkinGordino · 27/10/2014 07:20

"Hate Ms .Probably because when I was younger only raving feminists and lesbians used it"

Hmm
YonicScrewdriver · 27/10/2014 07:21

SDTG - an MNer has recently been campaigning to get mothers' names on marriage certificates:

m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28158341

That's a "little change" , but little changes matter as well as big ones.

I get that being called Mrs is important to you, but if you'd never heard of women's titles being changed on marriage then it wouldn't have occurred to you that this was a good/bad thing, same as for men. You aren't sad that you're not called Mistress, or whatever title was used 150 years ago, you are sad that something you like could be taken away. That's fine - if the single adult female title was Mrs not Ms, I'd be a bit sad too. But from my perspective it's better for women that there is such a title than, specifically, what it is.

MaryWestmacott · 27/10/2014 07:41

Pumpkin - to be fair, when I was young, only a certain type of woman would use Ms - the very political left wing feminist who wanted to wear her political status. Unfortunately, Ms will probably take another generation to lose that connection.

You can campaign for an official use of Ms but the bulk of the population will continue to use Mrs or Miss, it might be more effective to campaign for Mrs to be applied to all adult woman in line with Europe. That wouldn't have the "80s lefty, navel gazing identity politics" baggage so more likely to be accepted by a lot of the population who automatically think of someone they would be devistated to be sat next to at dinner when they hear "Ms".

PumpkinGordino · 27/10/2014 07:53

it was the homophobia i was Hmm about

YonicScrewdriver · 27/10/2014 07:56

Wow, really, Mary? I'm late 30s and Ms is just another title to me.

I think as fewer women change their name, fewer women will be Mrs as it seems more unusual to change title without changing surname.

LittleBearPad · 27/10/2014 07:59

The French/German/Spanish/Italian system is better. Señorita whilst a young woman, señora one a grown one.

But actually I'm rarely called by my title anyway. I checked my bank cards and it's only on one. It's really just used in correspondence and thats mainly junk mail. It may be that titles as a whole diminish in importance anyway.

How do you say Mx? It seems an odd approach - is the x meant to denote the lack of specificity

Hakluyt · 27/10/2014 08:06

"I'm proud to be a Mrs and feel people afford me more respect once they know I'm married. You may not like it but that's just how the world is."

"Hate Ms .Probably because when I was younger only raving feminists and lesbians used it"

Well, those two statements sum up beautifully exactly why we need the change!

Amethyst24 · 27/10/2014 08:08

I can't remember the last time I addressed anyone by their honorific. Surely outside of schools (ok, and maybe hospitals) it's very rarely used?

And I totally agree with what Outs and EBearhug have said on this thread. It's infuriating that this gets met over and over again with the same old "it's my choice" "my birth surname was horrid" "ms doesn't sound nice" etc arguments, but it will change - it already is changing.

YonicScrewdriver · 27/10/2014 08:10

A quick google says 25-30% of women marrying now I. Their twenties are keeping their birth names.