Men have done such a number on us that even women don't even know what rape is

[cailindana]

Now I know Judy Finnegan is not a paragon of intellectual prowess.

But still, I would never have thought such stupidity could fall from her lips: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-29598732

She said the rape was "not violent." So what was it then? Friendly? Enjoyable? Just a little game?

How how how how how do we live in a world where a woman can't recognise the extreme violence of having your body used by another person?

Brighton - for the money example you do need to distinguish between persuasion and coercion. There is a crime with one of them, sorry to disappoint.

Not a lawyer here - but wouldn't coercion involve an element of duress?

Blackmail is a crime.

What about the emotional blackmail of a man who will sulk for days and not do the housework etc., if he's not allowed to penetrate your body against your will?

Hi AskBasil- I'm just trying to clarify are you saying if my partner sulks because I don't want sex, if this influences my decision to then consent to sex, you believe I have been raped?

Yes of course Brighton! God almighty what sort of world are we living in?? Would you tell your daughter that a partner who coerces her into sex using emotional abuse is committing no crime?

I should think it would fall under the category duress.
Also, sex when not wanted it can hurt a lot. Perhaps this is a separate issue, but if it hurts one might say it hurts and Even add please stop, and if the other does not stop then but carries on to ejaculate...you have apparently crossed into rape-territory.
I am aware this may not be the sort of scenario you are imagining, but still it seems to be fairly prevalent.

Actually, not sure what scenario you are thinking of, Brighton. Which one would you find acceptable? (Genuine question)

Cailindana, if or when I had a daughter then I would tell then no crime had been committed in those circumstances. You have to apply the logic to any other circumstance and it looks fairly ridiculous, only the seriousness of including rape in the equation lends it credibility.

If I sulk because my mum won't give me £50 and she then decides to give it to me - it wasn't a theft.

"an unenthusiastic yes is still a yes, and surely that is what consent (in any situation) turns on?"

why why why would anyone want to have sex under those circumstances? is their desire to orgasm inside another human being so important that they don't give a shit that that other person is just waiting for it to be over?

No rapist would get convicted because of the threat of a sulk, so don't worry. We are very far away from seemingly clear cut cases being tried in a manner befitting justice.

But your bar for acceptable access to peoples' bodies is very low, Brighton. Why?

I agree Petula, it is very tragic and creepy. I feel I need to keep stressing my posts are about where does it become a crime though :)

The theft analogy is not good. It is about a fundamental attitude to another human being. Not only to take a thing, but to impose on their will and body and being. To sulk because someone says no to having sex, in addition to sulk in such a manner that they then consent to a sex act on them as opposed to with them, is wrong on so many levels.

Hi CrotchMaven, I don't personally think it is.

Hi Turbonerd - it's morally unpleasant but my point is that I can't see any sensible reason to suggest it should be criminal behaviour :)

Is that really all you'd say, Brighton? You wouldn't say also that her partner sounds like a class-A shitbag, and that no one has the right to pressure her into sex, for example? You'd just say, well, that's the way it goes?

(Writing as someone whose own mother told me the week before my wedding that I would sometimes have to have sex just to please my husband so I know this is the way some perfectly nice people think...)

Sorry, slow typing - was asking Brighton if that was really all she would say to her daughter.

someone who still wants to have sex under those circumstances has the mindset of a rapist, they are committing rape. that is a criminal act

Hi NoParking, your post doesn't seem to relate to mine. I was answering the question of what I would say to my daughter about the situation being criminal or otherwise. Your post reads as if you believe I was explaining the full hypothetical conversation I may have had with her - which to be clear I was not doing.

Hi Petula,

In those circumstances nothing has happened with out consent, so I would personally say that it is not a rape.

Don't be harsh with Brighton, folks, I see what she's doing and she has explain several times. She is discussing this from an unemotional "at what point do we actually have a crime being committed?" viewpoint, not that she is unemotional about consent IRL or thinks that the examples she gives are representative of how she feels on the subject. It's a viewpoint worth exploring alongside the other angles, IMO.

as far as the law stands. i would still say it is the mindset of a rapist

i do get that annie and brighton

Petula, I think we are lucky to live in a country where a having a certain mindset is not a crime (even if it is repugnant!)