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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist pub no 12: The Bluestocking Returns, this time with goats!

999 replies

YonicScrewdriver · 05/10/2014 09:18

Welcome!

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MrsBuffyCockhead · 17/10/2014 18:45

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MrsBuffyCockhead · 17/10/2014 18:46

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VeryLittleGravitasIndeed · 17/10/2014 18:49

I never said the school shouldn't take it seriously Angry

VeryLittleGravitasIndeed · 17/10/2014 18:51

And I say that having been extremely badly bullied at school for a variety of reasons, which the school did nothing about. So it's not like I don't think bullying is serious, it's incredibly serious. My point is that BEING BULLIED is enough of a problem, and that if the OP brought racism into it she risked having a long winded debate about "is it racism" that achieved nothing for her DD.

DunedinSunshine · 17/10/2014 18:54

Just so it doesn't look like I popped on here from out of the blue to argue about another thread, I am a regular poster in FWR and in the pub. Recent name change.

DunedinSunshine · 17/10/2014 19:05

Yes, I agree that being bullied should be enough of a problem for the school to do something about it, but according to the OP in that thread, when the family complained, they were told the child should just ignore it. I understand your point, but having fought battles for my children in schools, it does sometimes get their attention to a greater degree when you have legal considerations on your side.

PuffinsAreFicticious · 17/10/2014 19:05

A friend of mine's DS ended up having to be pulled from school because he had spent his whole life up until then in Germany (Father with the British Army) and he was constantly bullied about the way he spoke. At the end he couldn't walk down a corridor without someone calling him a Nazi and saluting him. For those who don't know, this is extremely hard for Germans, his mother was appalled and distressed by the Nazi stuff. The school acknowledged he was being bullied, but refused to consider the xenophobic aspects, it got to the point where he was truanting and contemplating running away. He's now in a different school where they hold no truck with any of that, which is good, but he's a changed child now.

It seems to me that schools, especially secondary schools are shockingly bad at dealing with bullying.

FuckOffFerret · 17/10/2014 19:07

Dunedinsunshine is that Fl or NZ?

PetulaGordino · 17/10/2014 19:15

i was bullied at school in france for being english. oddly, it was the least bad of the bullying i have experienced because unlike all the other kinds i didn't think it was my fault. it wasn't the same as racism at all. i didn't tell my parents so don't know how the school handled it. though incidentally my mum did a bit of teaching at the same school and spotted a child that she felt had some signs of physical abuse at home (she had quite a lot of experience with this in the UK), and the school said "we don't have that in france" Shock. (this was 25 years ago)

PetulaGordino · 17/10/2014 19:16

don't know how the school would have handled it

DunedinSunshine · 17/10/2014 19:24

FuckOff It's primarily Florida, but also a nod to the capital of Scotland.

MyEmpireOfDirt · 17/10/2014 19:49

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JeanneDeMontbaston · 17/10/2014 20:05

Running late to the discussion - but, buffy, I think part of it is that some of them honestly don't know. I have a couple of lovely, very kind and eminent friends who have simply not linked up 'what I did when I was starting out and it worked for me' with 'what that bloke I hired had on his resume and how many years off the PhD he was'. One of them told me almost in the same breath that it was sensible to take ten years over your first book, and admitted they'd recently hired a postdoc who was on his second book, because the calibre of applicants allowed them to do that.

Which means, effectively, they rejected all the people who 'only' had the one book.

I don't know anything, though. I am not published and need to be. ASAP.

vezzie · 17/10/2014 20:35

I don't know anything about academia but I really struggle with all these nuanced sorts of evaluation, because on the one hand, it has to be nuanced for all the same good reasons that nuances always have value; on the other hand, consciously or subconsciously, hand waving and saying "it's nuanced" can be cover for "I feel right about supporting / appointing this chap" which can be cover for "this chap is pure status quo and ticks a lot of cultural boxes that make me feel very comfortable for reasons I haven't analysed but are de facto quite discriminatory".

And of course I am not above doing it myself (although in my case for reasons I have analysed, and I don't know if that makes me better or worse). I am ashamed to say that I went into my last round of interviewing for my brilliant junior whom I now have and love (as does everyone else) knowing I was 90% likely to appoint a woman. there were good reasons and bad reasons for this, (in fact, even all the good reasons are kind of bad) - reasons like

  • women are less likely to require other women to repeatedly justify their authority (men often do this and it is a mutual waste of energy. I have no idea if they do it to other men too, quite likely, but either way I can't be fucked with it. If you want to tell me what to do, rather than vice versa, apply for my job, or the position above me, and get it. No one is stopping you. for now, you report to me, and I will be nice to you, and we do work together, so stop bringing pointless alpha battles into work)
  • women are not aggressively literal about the bounds of what you have asked them to do and will think broadly about what needs to be done (at higher and lower levels)
  • women do not subconsciously expect servants. many men do, even embarrassingly junior men, and if they have not been allocated an assistant (of course they haven't) , they actually expect their boss to act as one, in some kind of female boss = maternal figure = servant-who-looks-after-my-well-being kind of equation. Excruciating. I have been literally embarrassed, for both of us, explaining to a man 10 years younger with 0 years experience in the field why I was not there to do his paperwork.
  • men don't listen
  • women are less likely to stink up my work place and are generally quieter and less physically

all of that adds up into a very reactionary approach to appointing a person and I am not proud of it, and I admit that some of it is arguably a problem with me (why is it a problem if someone has a very challenging style of relating to their boss? because I can't handle it well - you could say that I am the wrong person for the job as much as him). YET I honestly stand by all that stuff as being good for us, the company, achieving our collective objectives. I actually think those qualities make for a better team and better, more efficient work.

No doubt some arse who has never, never appointed a female to a senior academic post thinks the same though, about his views.

I do have the consolation that by taking this route I haven't collaborated with the systematic oppression of men in the workplace

JeanneDeMontbaston · 17/10/2014 20:42

Can I come and work for you, vezzie?!

I think you're right - lots of it must be people hiring someone who fits nicely, doesn't need any of that feminine stuff, etc.

vezzie · 17/10/2014 21:04

Good heavens Jeanne, you really do not want to, why on earth would you say that? you already have a brilliant exciting new job anyway, tell us about that.

I am really struggling with work at the moment, have found myself really exhausted and inefficient this week, but today I got my asthma medicine for the first time in over 2 weeks and that will take effect over the next few days, and I really hope it will make a difference. Must go to bed as well, must NOT sit on mn chatting...

Tears here too, from tiredness. I am so messed up. DERANGED BY PATRKIARCHY! I was making something for tea, something a bit spicy, a bit different from the smallish blandish thing I had for the dcs, and then he came home and said he wasn't hungry. I cried because if he wasn't eating that meant I couldn't have the prawns, which I was looking forward to, and put them back in the freezer because now I was going to make a more modest version without the prawns as it was only for me. WTAF? Then I cried again because I am such a divvy and took them out again and COOKED MY GODDAMNED PRAWNS. the programming is impressive. Vile. but impressive.

PenguinsIsSleepDeprived · 17/10/2014 21:13

I am feeling pretty exhausted and fed up too. I adore DS, absolutely and totally. But sometimes I can't help feeling a wee bit cheated that this was meant to be my easy year - I would have a couple of hours a day of pre-school to myself, to plan my future career moves, to just breathe and get on top of life (the volunteering role I do, DIY, catching up in my subject area in case I do something related, etc etc). And instead it is frantic, and I'll never get it again because obviously I won't be staying out of the job market for another 3 years to get to this point again.

PetulaGordino · 17/10/2014 21:14

vezzie good for you

when dp went away for work i used to just pick at stuff out of the fridge, not eat proper meals (we don't have children so no need to nourish others). these days i plan nice meals for myself, set the table properly as i would when both of us are there, etc. it was hard to get to hte point where i saw this as worth the effort

MyEmpireOfDirt · 17/10/2014 21:17

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PenguinsIsSleepDeprived · 17/10/2014 21:19

Well done Petula.

When DH is away (a lot) I eat with my kids. I try and make an effort, but the meals that go down best are always the lazy stuff like pesto pasta and peas, which I'd never serve to DH. I can't decide if that's because I've internalised this stuff, or more that actually I like that kind of low effort eating and I like even more not having to make much time in my day for cooking. When I was a student and then when I lived alone, I used to eat ok (for my budget!).

vezzie · 17/10/2014 21:19

Penguins, is it impossible that you have some equivalent time when DS is at pre-school?
Just a question. I completely understand if it is, I have never been able to take more than mat. leave. But if it was ever an option, is it really not now?

I'd love to take some parental time out now. A year of maternity leave without the hassle of the baby. But not worrying about going back to work, because the job stays open, and it's just a parental moment. A year, but a moment. It would be so great to spend more time with the dcs, but not so great I would remotely consider another baby

PetulaGordino · 17/10/2014 21:21

i would happily eat the same meals every day for weeks on end Grin. the only reason why i don't is because (1) dp would get bored (2) dp would get worried and (c) it's probably good to eat a bit of a range!

he's away next week and i've got a joint of beef that was half price. so i'm going to roast that and have it cold for about five days in a row!

UptoapointLordCopper · 17/10/2014 21:21

When I work from home I cook myself lovely things. Grin

vezzie · 17/10/2014 21:24

I've gone off food, not off eating (I wish) but when I am feeling better and have more time I would eat and enjoy 3 interesting meals a day (not necessarily big ones but thoughtful though cheap ones)

Many days now I eat three meals out of the house, lots of them on trains out of home- or bought- packaging. it makes me fat and miserable